so why is TC 1 special or super cancelable? cause I think even Capcom realizes that super cancelable would be r-tarded and worthless.
He said that Makoto seemed stronger! Back throw frame data apparently changed that you can now just dash up and get 4f safe jump. Hit confirm FADC + TC was also good. Charged Hayate was also stronger than he thought. Just charging a little bit and it became EX hayate-like.
I’m guessing Capcom changed the frames for back throw to take away unblockable setups but silly Capcom, I’m sure more setups will be found…
BTW he posted some more Makoto 2012 info:
Backthrow -> forward jump whiff attack -> s.MP = last frame meaty (+5 on block, +8 on hit)
Backthrow -> forward dash -> neutral jump = 4 frame safe jump to normal characters (to characters that wake up 1 frame later would whiff)
Hmmmm… looking in twitter, looks like they changed her dash too (looks buffed?):
Interesting, sort of confirms some of my suspicions that Capcom’s reason for some of her nerfs (like the 950health we all pretty much agree was stupid but doesn’t change much of anything in the long run) was simply to make it APPEAR like she was nerfed to appease a lot of low-mid level players who have trouble with mid-high level Makoto’s high damage output.
I doubt it will change my opinion that she will be a solid B or B+ character (top half of the cast, maybe even just squeezing into the top 15 but certainly not the “near top 10” she was before in many peoples eyes.) but if some new tech or frame data is discovered I may have to eat my words.
On that note however, it is looking like at least the top half of the cast is a lot more condensed so other than perhaps the top 3-4 chars that end up standing out, the top 5-15 are all going to really close with opinions shifting the order fairly often.
I will bake everyone cookies if they buffed her forward dash.
And by “everyone” I mean myself.
And by “bake cookies” I mean “eat a whole package of Oreos.”
Reading JP boards… this is the forward dash buff:
After forward dash, you now don’t have the hitbox issues where Makoto is pushed back after the forward dash:
This guy described the change in the positioning after forward dash:
Left: AE, Right: 2012
A couple more unconfirmed changes: http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/49802/1320928622/641
- Yamase seems to full hit more often
- EX hayate range seemed to be slightly nerfed?
What the heck? Last frame meaty s.MP is +8, +11.
By my calculations, forward jumping attack (44 frames) + s.MP (11 active + start-up frames) = 55 frames. That doesn’t line up with Forward dash (16 frames) + neutral jump attack (40 frames) = 56 frames. I’ll give the easier setup of mashing dash the benefit of execution ease and guess backthrow = 56 knock-down frames instead of the current stock 60 frames.
If it’s 56:
Dash, neutral jump 4 frame safe jump
Dash, c.HK whiff, perfectly meaty s.MP
Dash, s.LP whiff, perfectly meaty MP Oroshi
Forward jump attack whiff, perfectly meaty c.MK
Forward empty jump, perfectly meaty s.HK
Dash, f+MK whiff, as perfectly meaty LK Karakusa as possible.
If it’s 55:
s.LK whiff, neutral jump 4 frame safe jump. A shitty range, but eh.
Forward jumping attack whiff, perfectly meaty s.MP.
f+HK hold, perfectly meaty MP Oroshi.
HP Hayate whiff, perfectly meaty c.MK
MP Hayate whiff, perfectly meaty s.HK
Dash, f+MK whiff, as perfectly meaty MK Karakusa as possible.
So a frame perfect meaty s.mp is now balls easy to set up eh? Better forward dash? Hayate charge buff not useless? Yamase not randomly dropping the hits as much?
I’m not so sure we even got nerfed really considering all this hidden stuff. Now I’m REALLY curious as to what all got changed.
Yeah I’m definitely looking forward to the update just to see how all the changes add up.
hmm, looks like there’s reasoning behind the madness
Uh sorry I miswrote. Yeah he said forward dash and neutral jump being 4f safe jump and I forgot the dash >.>
it don’t sound like she gotten nerfed at all. its like wesker in mvc3…he got nerfed but gain quite a few buffs as well.
i smell a bandwagon…
Wow! EX Karakusa range now doesn’t seem as harsh of a nerf with that dash info.
I see it being useful for s.lk options. There are some matches where I utilize s.lk, a lot, for setting up karakusa/ex-hayate/reversal bait. It isn’t the greatest guessing game she has, but it forces the opponent to respect other options from block/hit s.lk to mindgame into other shit. The TC cancel adds one more element to that very specific situation. Super cancel is kind of enh and a waste of EX…but it could be one more avenue for guaranteed Ultra. Special cancel…I wanna know which. Hayate is gonna be nice. EX Hayate will be hot shit. EX Oroshi I’m gonna squeal. Karakusa…probably not possible if Makoto gets shoved in the middle of TC…but omfg if you can.
s.LK TC s.MK has 16F of hitstun, same as s.MK and c.MP. If you can’t combo off of those, you won’t be able to do it with s.LK TC s.MK in 2012.
IE no EX Oroshi or Karakusa shenanigans off of TC s.MK.
Aw man! If that dash info is true, I’m going to be one happy man. Not being able to dash up LK.karakusa E.Honda was SO annoying. This really boosts her pressure game. TC1 being special cancelable might make s.LK whiff kara - karakusa more viable. They see s.LK come out, if they try to punish the kara, they eat TC -> hayate.
So TC1 is confirmed to be special-canceable?
And holy hell yes for the forward dash fix. Still curious about the back throw frame data. Kind of messes with our crossup tsurugi shenanigans, but I’m sure we’ll get some new tech out.
Pleasantly surprised with these changes so far, can’t wait for 2012 makoto
As long as Makoto doesn’t have a consistent invincible reversal she’ll never be bandwagoned.
Look at chars that receive the “bandwagon” treatment throughout the history of SF4.
Sagat
Fei
Akuma
Yun
Yang
Boxer
Honda
Guile
Rufus
Ryu
Ken
Seth
Cammy
Notice anything? EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. has an invincible till active reversal that . Sure they are of varying effectiveness but every single one has an invincible till active (and FADCable) reversal. Now this doesn’t mean that without an invincible till active reversal you are dead in the water as a character, it just means you wont suddenly become a “flavor of the month” this is because without a consistent reversal to mash out low to mid level players will have a much harder time and are much more likely to simply drop the character.
true. Come to think of it, I remember a new player coming in a couple of months ago who asked “how do I get people off me”. Dood was an Akuma player. We told him he had to learn how to block and we never heard from him again.
Back to the changes:
This new info is quite nice. I was afraid the Hayate charge was going to be retarded, but it looks like it will have solid applications. Also that dash change looks yummy. It will certainly make dashing up and throwing much easier.