Make it Bloody Rain: The Vega Combo/Tech Thread

[Mnszyk]

Is half this thread literally theory crafting block strings that start off -2? What is going on?

Calm down bro, I agree with you tho lol…

I complained about this a few times because I don’t really believe in the SC on block. The argument is, that if you do st.hp -> lp ASE enough times, they won’t be so quick to press a button expecting the SC. The problem tho, that Mnszyk has pointed out, is that st.Hp -> lp ASE is a true blockstring, so they can’t mash out of it. Now, This upsets me very much, and the only thing that we could hope for is that people with 3 frame standing normals stand up and try to spam out, not knowing that it is impossible to spam out anyway.

Yeah I was probably too much but it bothers me that people were going gaga and theory crafting all these variations of a thing that doesn’t even work. Like 5 minutes in training mode would show you it doesn’t work.

If you’re going to have a tech thread and figure out tech, you’ve gotta make sure things are legit and real first, and not just week 2 gimmicks, or else you wind up with an entire page of people trying to pressure people off -2. I wanna pick up Vega so I was running through the thread and saw this and then I tested it in the game and was like “wait… what?? this doesn’t work”

[greatlakes_pvp]

@nappydude edit** Clawless st.hp does not force standing, cr.hp does, but cannot confirm into a TC. St.hp (clawless) will hit crouchers, and you are +4 on hit, so it could be a frame trap for mashers.

Using cr.mk or cr.mp tho(after CT crossup)you are +2(on block) so thats a pretty threatening situation for them.

@Mnszyk Haha, you’re right tho man. Check out some of this crossup stuff we got cooking tho. Its looking really nasty.

[af0]

@greatlakes_pvp the target combo reset is pretty decent. The other ones post hard knockdown are good too but after once or twice, it’s gonna be obvious he’s always gonna go to the other side, since the roll is a giveaway.
After CC sweep, he has more potential with his FBA, as someone already showed on here previously.

[greatlakes_pvp]

@af0 I hear ya, but once our opponents learn that Vega has this crossup, thats where the meaty TC and whiff TC come in handy. With a slight adjustment, you can meaty the TC on them on the original side or make it whiff completely.

So it pretty much becomes a 50 50 guess for them if you are gonna cross up or stay on the same side. They also have to worry about you whiffing and going for a command grab.

Ill have to check out the fba thing, but the more options and mixups, the better in my opinion. The TC shit happens so fast that their only option is to guess. They aint reacting to subtle adjustments.

Edit* oh yeah if the TC hits truly meaty and they block it, we should be either 0 or maybe even positive rather than -2… Depends on how many active frames we have to work with. Deinitely gonna do some testing on that.

[DrKatz]

To add to this… We should be inclined to use st.HP xx lp.ase more… On hit hes +frames after you dash.

Normal recovery - dash - st.HP will hit meaty
Back recovery - dash dash - st.lk will hit meaty

Go for the normal recovery only until they Start get predictable with back recovery. Bec even when you dash - st.HP, if they back recover they can not punish you even with DP. And you are in the perfect position with vega.

I love this post. This has helped improve my Claw game tenfold. If anyone watched the recent Ranked Footage of PR Balrog, he does this a lot. Seems like Vega’s pressure comes from beating people with his excellent range. I might go so far as to say s.HP is his best claw-on normal. So much versatility.

[DrKatz]

5HP xx LP ASE would tag them, that’s why

It’s playing with negatives though, so it’s risky.

No? 5HP xx LP ASE is a true block string. Literally the only way it could hit someone is if they stood up and got hit low.

So lets break that down:

s.HP > SC > Command Throw --** counterhit if they hit a button**

s.HP > LP ASE (Do this first to establish respect) – ** nothing comes out if they hit a button **

s.HP > SC > c.MK> Command Throw ** counterhit if they hit a button **

There’s no mix up.

Double Post:

You’re right, there is no mixup. Very valid point. That was my mistake. I’m trying to find a way to get people to respect claw switch.

[Tomo009]

Ok so 5HP has way too much block stun, if there is going to be a setup to get them to respect it will have to be off a light but that will be even MORE risky because then you are going to very punishable whenever you go for the swap

EDIT: As for the LK/MK CT stuff, I’ve been using it a lot, I i usually just use 2MK to meaty but 5HP is also very useful. The MK roll is the mixup, not the first option, becuase if they are quick rising and reacting to the roll, the MK roll is sure to catch them in the front.

Wouldn’t be surprised if people start only back teching soon, though, I wish there was a way to punish back tech a little.

[Time_Mage]

I only backtech, actually. Sure, it carries me to the corner, but is way safer than the normal tech most of the time (if not always).

[Veserius]

depends on the knockdown, some characters get a safejump if you backtech, but on normal knockdown you might have time to slide under/aa.

Knowing what knockdowns put you what situation is very important.

[nappydude]

@DrKatz its a really good play… And seeing how I want to pull away from the (sc) command grab gimmick, I am starting to use ex FBA fast drop to get my damage…

[Time_Mage]

depends on the knockdown, some characters get a safejump if you backtech, but on normal knockdown you might have time to slide under/aa.

Knowing what knockdowns put you what situation is very important.

Yeah, it’s not going to be optimal in the future to always backtech, but as I learn the matchups and all the possible scenarios, this seems like the safest route. I’ll apply the necessary exceptions as problems arise.

[greatlakes_pvp]

EDIT: As for the LK/MK CT stuff, I’ve been using it a lot, I i usually just use 2MK to meaty but 5HP is also very useful. The MK roll is the mixup, not the first option, becuase if they are quick rising and reacting to the roll, the MK roll is sure to catch them in the front.

Wouldn’t be surprised if people start only back teching soon, though, I wish there was a way to punish back tech a little.

What do you mean about the backtech? The crossup stuff works on normal recovery AND backtech, unless I’m missing something here. Also, mk ct is a good mixup but I have just been using lk ct exclusively because if something goes wrong, like they manage to block, you are at less of a disadvantage, and possibly even at advantage if you get it to hit as meaty as possible. You can also do a whiff ct -> command grab.

[DrKatz]

I have to admit, I’m getting pretty frustrated. I feel like Vega gets out poked by a majority of the cast, even with claw on. Seems like there’s no point in keeping the claw on. Any advice guys?

[DrKatz]

I feel like I outplay people and still get beat. His anti-airs always trade. Is s.LP any good as an anti-air? Seems like everyone else can use them well, but maybe ours isn’t good.

[Tomo009]

EDIT: As for the LK/MK CT stuff, I’ve been using it a lot, I i usually just use 2MK to meaty but 5HP is also very useful. The MK roll is the mixup, not the first option, becuase if they are quick rising and reacting to the roll, the MK roll is sure to catch them in the front.

Wouldn’t be surprised if people start only back teching soon, though, I wish there was a way to punish back tech a little.

What do you mean about the backtech? The crossup stuff works on normal recovery AND backtech, unless I’m missing something here. Also, mk ct is a good mixup but I have just been using lk ct exclusively because if something goes wrong, like they manage to block, you are at less of a disadvantage, and possibly even at advantage if you get it to hit as meaty as possible. You can also do a whiff ct -> command grab.

If they back tech and you MK CT, it whiffs and they can punish.

Yes the LK CT will still cross up, but there’s no mix up and they can react to the roll. That was the whole point of the MK roll there I thought, so that they can’t just see roll and know crossup.

[greatlakes_pvp]

@DrKatz Unfortunately they did fuck Vega over pretty hard. His hurtboxes on his claw normal are stupidly vulnerable, and I don’t think it’s fair either, but it is what it is right now. I keep hearing people claiming Vega is “top 5” but honestly I know thats a crock of shit. He is decent, but probably one of the worst in term of his tools to get in, keep people off him, and to get easy big damage. You have to just play extremely smart, and have patience. Once you get in, you need to use all the tech you can and keep them guessing so much that they get overwhelmed. You also need to have your spacing on point. If you let people too close to you with claws on, it will be hard to react and punish jump in pressure. You need to know when you are in position to easily anti air, know when it is time to jump air to air, know when it is time to dash under, or slide under, etc. Learning the other characters frame data is also essential. I know Bison’s data pretty well because he is a frame trap monster, and a pretty bad matchup for us.

In a few match ups, clawless is definitely a much better option because your buttons are so much faster, the command grab, and combo potential. You have to find out which you prefer. Some chars I use the claw more because I know how to force them to jump and do stupid things in the neutral with me, and I just switch stances accordingly. Also against people like Rashid and R.mika, you can vskill punish their drop kick moves. Rashid you can block his flying kick and st.mp(claw) or slide punish i’m pretty sure according to Time Mage.

@Tomo009 That works but I’m saying that lk ct can do ALL of those things. You can adjust your timing and cause a whiff, cause a meaty hit, or still cross up. I was also saying that if you do mk ct and for some reason you flubb the setup, they don’t backtech, and/or they manage to block it, you are at -7(if it’s not meaty). Now, lk ct is -6 on block, so it is still not safe(on paper) but if you hit it as meaty as possible you definitely are more safe after that than mk ct.

If you hit either one of them as meaty as possible it is way better than not doing so, and you won’t be -6 or -7. They both have 5 active frames on the last hit so it is definitely possible to make it much more safe.

I don’t use mk ct because it is slower basically. You just have to play around with the timings to get these 3 different situations. It is as simple as a slight delay after the target combo. I can do it by feel but i’ll hit the lab and see what else I can find. I’ll try to post a few more vids as well.

[DrKatz]

I am also new to Street Fighter coming from anime games, so that could be part of my struggle as well.

He just feels less consistent and reliable compared to the tools other characters have. Playing footsies against a character like Chun Li confuses me. How do we get in or punish her for spamming her great pokes?

[greatlakes_pvp]

Here is a nice tip, because because i’m getting tired of characters like Nash, Ryu. and Bison getting all these easy ass frame traps and stupid pressure. Our best frame traps on block are in clawless mode, st.lp into st.mp or cr.mp, those both will frame trap anyone pressing a button, and should out prioritize any 3 frame normal. Cr.lp into cr.mp is also a tight frame trap, as well as cr.mp -> cr.mp, (the 2nd cr.mp becomes a 3 frame normal on block). There are more, but they are not as safe. They are more for beating or trading with 4 frame normals. I will do some more testing but for now, the ones I listed are very strong for the poking punish game and constant pressure.

edit* Almost forgot, st.lk, cr,mk, and st.mk on block also turn our cr.mp into a frame trap. It is 3 frames, so should beat out anything besides some ex stuff and invincible bs. So start using those more and you should start getting a lot more counter hits/free pressure.

Remember, clawless only.

[Samstar]

There a a couple of interesting cross up CA set ups in here a long with some cross up CT set ups. https://twitter.com/mohumohukedama

[greatlakes_pvp]

There a a couple of interesting cross up CA set ups in here a long with some cross up CT set ups. https://twitter.com/mohumohukedama

The ones that he did on no recovery are ok, but I don’t like them too much cause I think either normal or back recovery are gonna be the scenario for 85% of the time…unless they are trying to throw you off or just miss the tech. Also, there is less time to react on quickrises, but holy shit that safe jump after CA and JESUS CHRIST that cross up CA setup on quick rise, hahaha I definitely just downloaded that tech. Nice find bro!