^ Yeah, that’s one of the few changes I really like about Ultra. I think they’re trying to rebalance the general risk/reward of the game, with dps being unsafe on FADC and moves like Honda’s ex hb being actually punishable (which needed to be imo, it was just too braindead).
I’m okay with PC being nerfed honestly, if that’s part of a bigger vision.
Man, they sure don’t want us to use PC anymore. That was like it is only good use and it is mediocre as whole because many characters could just avoid it easily (ultra , invincible move, or even backdash at times). Delayed wake-up should have limited it is use even further and even if one get hit with it it will lead to nothing. I still don’t understand how they handled Bison. They didn’t seems to want to improve his useless moves such ultra and skull diver yet they make his limited moves even more limited, I am afraid they gonna make him even more straight forward character wit lame and boring play style.
Anyway, I just cannot believe they intended for PC to deal 18 chip, not that I care about PC as chip move , but still 18 chip for a move such as PC is just wrong on all levels.
At this point i don’t understand why they did’nt just buff PC dmg, it will become a simple tool and be used as combo ender
L 130
M 140
H 160
ex 160
Why not?
Cross up Pyscho Crusher is better in ultra. Currently most characters with a few exceptions just mash a reversal and stuff it clean. There are no setups to make reversals consistently whiff now. But in ultra they have to correctly block an ambigious pyscho crusher on wake up because reversals for some reason don’t auto correct as they do now. PC still seems safe if blocked as a cross up, only now its punishable if its blocked normally. And its only right it should be, because it would be dumb having a move safe on block each way and safe from reversals. The loss of chip and escape pc is minor compared to this buff imo.
@Shadow : If they truly wanted that they wouldn’t have buffed C.Viper. I think it is just a very lazy attempt to fix the bug discovered by Gagapa where the Cross-up PC hits twice and deals 200+ damage following the first announcement of PC new properties.
@Azza: It is fine because as you said the move was not that useful for Bison becauseit is very risky to attempt corss-up PC and it isn’t hard to avoid all together or punish it. However , the Chip damage seems so wrong that I wonder if they even cared to polish the game. It seems as a lazy fix to what Gagapa discovered.
mmmnot necessarily. viper’s entire game/design revolves around her ambiguity. sure she has some footsies but that’s not much for her to be honest. her entire game gets nerfed with dwu, hence the buffs. she amazing in the current metagame but won’t be as good in the next.
same logic has applied to fuerte. dwu nerfs his entire game/design so they gave him some buffs (even more meaningful ones since he was not so great to begin with). zangief relied heavy on getting his one knock down and running his ‘vortex’. dwu heavily nerfs his one or two chances to get real damage, so they redesigned his moves to let him get inside you more often (not needing to rely on ex meter to get in). dwu ruins cammy’s brainlessness, but she’s a wicked solid character even without all that bs so she gets mostly nerfs. bison’s PC cross up could be very ambiguous and pretty safe, so it gets nerfed too. exsk was “too brainless” (i disagree but w/e), so they make it -1 and buff s.mp to promote better play (and honestly utility of s.mp buff > 0 sk).
capcom’s changes actually make a lot of sense in ultrasf4. their old vision of ambiguity, canned set ups and vortexes is crap so they are going with a new vision as best they can (without scrapping everything and doing SF5). anything with a hint of ‘BS’ is getting nerfed, regardless of character. any character that dwu harms too much is getting buffed or redesigned in some way to be more in tune with the next meta, regardless of where on the tier list they are.
If you only look at vortex characters and bs setups, then yes, the new mechanics are good, but what about characters who DON’T rely on bs setups? How are they supposed to open people up? How will they be rewarded for finally getting that one much-needed knockdown? Look at Fei Long: how is he being “re-designed and buffed to be more in tune with the new metagame”?
You might say that the metagame will shift to a more neutral oriented one, and that might be true. However, I’m very afraid that the game will turn into a Bison / Honda matchup turtle-fest, with one character sitting on a lead and waiting for the opponent to lose his patience. Making a comeback will be practically impossible, and the game will be even slower.
Again, I understand their vision, and like what they are going for, but I’m afraid they were so focused on removing setups from characters like Akuma and Cammy that they forgot there are other characters in this game as well.
Bison conformed bottom 5 thanks to Gagapa’s bug finding. Thanks Gagapa, you destroyed Shadowloo.
Just to be clear. DWU affects hard knockdown setup characters. Viper and characters with Dive Kicks don’t care at all about this mechanic. They can okizeme from everything.
No, I didn’t get a chance to talk to Combofiend even though he was playing only two stations over at times. A setup I used to like to do was slide and ambigous PC and if it hit front it would two tick and make it safe. That setup no longer works for sure.
the questions i think are most important are these:
answer 1) zangief and fuerte? who else really? hawk? gief and fuerte got their tweaks, idk about hawk.
answer 2) no, i don’t believe they do (and im not referring to just gief/fuerte/hawk). some characters need their canned set ups in ae2012 because of garbage like safe reversals, safe/free pressure, and even stronger set ups from the opponent which screw with them all round. those characters NEED that one or two set ups to get back in the fight in ae2012 because of all the BS their opponents had on them all game. in usf4, all of these core flaws have been addressed in some some form. these characters that used to NEED those one or two chances to bring it all back can all of a sudden be allowed to make more mistakes and not get punished nearly as hard for being knocked down. they have more than just one or two chances to make or break now. those characters no longer NEED those one or two critical chances any more
I disagree, that’s a pretty weak argument if I have to be honest. Having a lead doesn’t necessarily mean it’s because of some bs, maybe the opponent just outplayed you for the first 30 seconds.
I mean, what about Honda? How am I supposed to come back against a character who can headbutt you every time you move? What about Guile, who can sit on a lead and make it impossible for you to get in? The list goes on.
Mixups and okizeme are and will always be a crucial part of any fighting game, because they weaken defensive tactics and prevent the opponent from abusing the life lead.
Having a mixup after a knockdown is fair, having a mixup that leads to the same mixup is not. Tekken and Soul Calibur are a perfect example of this: after you score a knockdown, you only get ONE mixup (tech trap), and that’s it, the match returns to neutral after that. However, you’re usually gonna get more damage depending on how good your read was. That’s how a good oki system is made.
What I’m getting at is, the problem isn’t the wake-up mixup per se, but the succession of the same mixup leading to itself over and over. Adding delayed wake-up defintely solves that, but it also nullifies a fundamental aspect of fighting games that is okizeme. It’s like killing every mouse just to find the only one that was infected.
not only that, but in SF4, mixups that lead into other mixups are safe if guessed.
^ That’s true, but that’s not an issue imo. I think that if mixups were unsafe, nobody would use them. I mean if you think about it, mixups in SF are not really 50/50, they are more like 30/70, but safe, which is a fair trade imo.
Besides, if mixups were unsafe 50/50s, the game would become rather random, a coin toss to decide who’s gonna get a combo on who. There’s already MK for that.
All I hope for is that C.HP and maybe with S.HP plugs the holes in Bison’s AA defense at the opportune times, like spacing right after an SK (mid distance roughly). I just want that range to be so you can’t abuse him with jump ins anymore.
Anyone have any videos or could make any illustrating what C.HP can and cannot do against the cast?
not exactly sure we’re talking about the same thing.
i’m not sure what is so weak about that argument. i do agree that having the lead doesn’t necessarily mean BS was involved, but i’m not sure why you brought that up…? that only supports what i’m saying?
im also not sure what you mean about comebacks? in the next game you won’t need set ups vs honda because he won’t be able to spam headbutts anymore. dwu removes your set up but you don’t need it anymore
i also agree that mixups are part of the game, but it’s not like dwu is preventing you from attempting your mix ups or jump ins when you get the KD.
idk i just think dwu does more good than bad. same with the rest of the system changes. gives everyone universal tools to compete, and nerf the garbage. then again i’ve been playing a character where the system mechanics clearly work against me so maybe im biased
oh and SPEAKING of guile… you guys are probably gonna hate me for this but…
i think in usf4 it IS a competitive match up. i think it is at least 5-5 and maybe even 6-4 bison favour with the right temperament… if it’s anything like the usf4 mod that is.
my buddy and i were playing, and it was very easy to reaction through the lp.sonic booms. i was punishing the booms through mid-screen in real game play. guile isn’t my buddy’s main but i think being able to reaction boom mid screen is convincing enough. what gagapa said makes sense to me now. you can actually walk guile to the corner and focus on whiff punishing on the way there if guile tries to push you back with buttons. once you have him in the corner you can reaction sk all day and s.mp him to death
For people basing things on the PC mod…remember that it is based on announced changes and what little gets discovered on the latest build. Capcom also puts in changes that are not announced as well which would not be in the mod. A lot of those can be important
Shadow,
I said it was a weak argument because you made it seem like bs was the only reason why someone would get a lead. If I understood correctly, what you’re saying is that basically nerfed bs means having the lead in the first place is gonna be harder, which means characters will now be less dependant on that one critical setup to come back. And this heavily favours weaker characters.
Fair enough, that’s good if you think about balance, however think about the flow of the game. How am I gonna stop the opponent from turtle-ing if he has the lead (even if it’s totally deserved)?
What DW does is weakening the bs, which means that when someone has the lead, it’s because he deserved it, and he simply played better than the opponent. That’s good. However, what it also does is giving the one with the lead an extra advantage, since it will be much harder for the opponent to turn the match around: this is because throws no longer lead to mixups, which makes them much less threatening and frame traps much weaker.
And this rewards turtle-ing, plain and simple. That’s what I don’t like.
I’d rather they reward the turtle playlist than the brainless vortex shit that runs v.2012. At least you need good spacing and defense to turtle, all you need is one knockdown to vortex.
That is not true scrub. You also need to whiff a normal in some situations.