M.bison USF4 , any Rumors of buff/nerf changes?

well here are my thoughts:

1 - S.MP 8f -> 6f
not too useful. 1 frame faster than c.mp/s.mp but same damage. less reach than c.mp i think. its hitbox extends outward with a pulled back hurtbox (a very rare case for bison) so they must want this to be used in footsies/whiff punish into sk cancel…

2 - S.MP special cancellable
…however given the lack of range and the fact you’re walking back and forth in footsies i really don’t see a purpose of this buff if they intend intended you to special cancel it in that manner. maybe if bison was a motion character it would be good. maybe i am selling this ‘buff’ short. i’ll have to think about it more but i don’t see too much solid usage

3 - Cr.HP 12->10f
this will help people that were too slow to AA with c.fierce in 95% of the MUs (re: doesn’t help me). while i do very much like that it’s quicker, the reality is that this only legit helps one (maybe 2) match ups in my eyes. zangief will now have a much harder time jumping in on bison since bison will be able to effectively AA him with c.fierce to beat zangiefs low arching jf.mk. this “buff” is very trivial in the larger picture of this game

4 - Scissors LK -1 on block
cannot be justified when considering bison’s other changes. currently a lot, and i mean A LOT of characters already have something to prevent bison from repeating his l.sk twice. i mean they have 3 frame normals that will trade, or normals that will make bison’s c.short whiff, and some even have normals that will stuff c.short (though that isn’t as common). currently the best case for bison is 2 blocked scissor kicks, and after the second one the player has A LOT of breathing room to (in super you could repeat 3 times before opponents could think about challenging c.short). with l.sk being -1, that means bison loses corner push (you can no longer repeat scissors) AND the pressure is reversed if you’re fighting anyone with a 3 or 4 frame normal (which i’m sure is mashable/chainable into a KD of their own). the reversed pressure means bison gets pushed back, meaning the only sk you do get to push someone back with is instantly nullified when the opponent starts their own block string. imagine vs vega, you do a l.sk. your only option is to trade bison’s 30dmg c.short with vega’s 65 damage c.mp, and be put in a range vega is comfortable with. and imagine if you mistime your c.short by a frame… vega combos you for 200 when you tried to get 140. this nerf skews risk/reward so badly as if bison didn’t already have the short end of the stick with his overall gameplan. will people with -1 specials/ultras being to get bison raw now after a single l.sk (zangief u1)?

5 - Scissors LK, MK, HK,EX +10 damage
sure i’ll take the +10 damage. l.sk is getting that damage BACK to what it was before. i think from AE to AE2012 is when it lost 10 damage.

6 - Teleport +5f recovery
i can confidently say that there is no character in this game that cannot punish a teleport by simply walking forward and pressing a button. sometimes that button is a sweep, other time’s it’s a standing jab into a KD combo. why are they making it recover slower? its recovery was already 42 frames and can be option selected. i already consider it a stroke of luck when i teleport and get away safely, now it will be a miracle i guess?

7 - Headpress startup 22->20f
i need to know how this change is done. exhs is actually very very very good for beating out almost any uppercut in this game because of it’s high frame count and high invincibility. if they straight cut 2 frames out of his start up, decreasing the total amount of frames, then i really don’t like this change because that means this is a nerf in it’s best usage scenario. if they keep total frames the same, but convert 2 inactive (startup) frames to active frames, then this is a decent buff. it will definitely help prevent people from walking backwards or under the EXHS from close range, meaning it could be a very viable “excellent chip and bounce far away from the pressure” sort of move.

8 - Devil Reverse EX Followup falls faster
i don’t like this. on the one hand falling faster means less maneuverability in the air when dodging fireballs or baiting out shoryukens or jump-forward attacks. that is potential damage loss. on the other hand you can build meter slightly faster, which is okay, but dr builds very little meter to begin with. most importantly, if the recovery on the ground stays then you’ll be fullscreen ultra’d all the same, and ‘building meter faster’ is worthless if the exact same risk is assumed

9 - Ultra 2 damage 450->420
w/e, barely land the thing against good players anyway.

10 - Ultra 2 charge 55f -> 40f
same as above. a more complete explanation would be that the problem was with start up time, not charge time. personally i think with quick enough reactions that U2 was still pretty usable but overall the chance you’ll get to use it against a good player is going to be small no matter what you do with this ultra. the charge time decrease is trivial, and the biggest scenario i can think of is when i’m faking walking back and forward while buffering my ultra against fireballers than aren’t paying attention. this will make it so getting the u2 charge isn’t as obvious

final thoughts

the majority of his buffs are almost negligible, and the really stand out one (EXHS) is in the air because we don’t know how they are implementing the change, so it could end up being a nerf in some scenarios. other move changes like DR falling faster are give and take (mostly take imo), and things like s.mp being cancellable doesn’t actually do much since it offers no extra damage in the ranges you would normally want to use it, and it’s too short of a range to effectively use it in footsies (where you won’t be able to cancel with it anyway). the biggest nerf is the -1 l.sk, and bison has received no buff significant buff to compensate his main pressure tool being flat out crippled

if i had to take a guess at what capcom/whoever was thinking when “balancing” bison, it would be this:

with the removal of unblockables, promised laxing of vortex character domination, and overall less BS in this game, it would be fair to say capcom is envisioning a more “honest” street fighter game. in this sense more footsie based characters are all getting indirectly buffed, and in capcoms eyes, by a very large margin. logically, bison is already a good footsie character, so these nerfs are pre-emptive because theoretically in UltraSF4, bison being able to corner push AND footsie very well could spell disaster in a much more honest environment.

they want bison to still be able to bully opponents with his normals and walk them to the corner, but they want to slow the rate in which he gets them there, and even cut down his options once he does have them there. in return, opponents will get less of an opportunity to get around and over bison’s head like they currently can by simply jumping at him, thus the buff to c.fierce. instead of bison being a medium-sized wall that pushes you to the corner at a medium rate and holds you there tight, he is now becoming a large® sized wall which advances slower and leaves you with more running room to jump over, but expects you to fail at those attempts more than you did before.

this is pretty good insight. the range on s.mp is actually a smidge longer than c.mk, i always thought they were the same but i checked it out in training mode. with the extra range in mind, this will give bison at least 25+ damage on a lot of his combos (90 of s.mp vs 65 if c.mk) and more consistency instead of the usual whiffing c.mk. also, s.mp doesn’t seem to be whiffing on some smaller crouchers (sakura, blanka, makoto, chun, ibuki, honda) and i thought it might, so that’s good.

i like the buff a whole lot more in that regard, but i still i dont think -1 on l.sk is justified.

I like the way you think. I’d still love for scissors to be 0 on block though lol

You should main Rose. You’re still using Bison this way!

Um… I don’t really have time to play fighters much anymore- and I actually dropped Bison for Rose before all this… so what I’m saying is im now just a causalf*g and you shouldn’t listen to anything I have to say but…

-1 scissor kick is bad compared to the mostly situational and negligible improvements they gave him. I mean, I don’t like theory fighter- maybe the mechanics will make this all add up but it seems like Bison will continue to have similar issues as before, and if anything will have to be played even more lame. Crouch fp is nice… stand medium punch… reminds me of SfxT Bison but im not sure how this will be suited in the USF4 engine after taking into account the -1 scissor kick nerf. Sorry to the people who still play Dictator, hopefully things will change in final product or work out, but I doubt it especially when you think of the other improvements characters will be getting. Power creep… Bison left behind… again :x
*
You guys honestly can’t say you are not surprised about this? *

Yeah, lk scissors being -1 on block sucks, especially since a bunch of other characters now have moves that are just as safe (Balrog, Dudley). They basically took away his key feature, but on the other hand it might promote smarter play.

lk scissors damage was nerfed from vanilla to super. Conflicting reports whether lk scissors got +10 damage back (probably not).

The far mp buff changes his upclose pressure because it gives him more time to hit confirm. In chargeless situations, instead of doing st.lk, st.lk st.hk, you will probably have time to do st.lk st.lk, st.mp xx whatever. If you’re feeling frisky, you can probably do close.hp-> st.lk->st.mpxx whatever, instead of the Jeron combo, which is close hp-> st.lk -> st.hk. It gives you the freedom to stagger and walk around more freely when you’re in the opponent’s face and that is valuable.

I’m also wondering about the headpress buff. As you said Shadow, it might not necessarily be a good thing depending on how they implemented the buff. If they increased his movement speed, I am curious if it would be possible to combo into headpress from a close fierce, or maybe a CH close fierce, which would be pretty boss.

AAAAAaaand this misconception is what got this change to begin with. Bison already has to play pretty damn smart at high level play with all of his flaws.

Capcom balances not just for high-level play, whether we like it or not

i like the thought of ch s.fierce -> s.mp -> hk.sk. you can already use c.mk but it whiffs on a lot of characters and c.mp is a 1 frame link that i’ve found tricky to time. s.mp would be an easy and reliable way of connecting. close.hp-> st.lk->st.mpxx like you said is also really really good, especially if you get it off a jump in.

but enough about s.mp

at 35 seconds in this video we see honda absorbing 4 strikes (is taken out of RFA on hit 5)… at the cost of 2bars

at first i’m thinking it sort of screws bison over, but then when i think on a broader scale i believe it adds some pretty decent depth to every character. for a basic example, why don’t we just walk up to ryu and RFA his c.mk x hado after all match of letting him do that to push us back? even exhado? unless you’re a character with a decently quick armor breaker then i think RFA can stir things up. we can finally focus through giefs multi-hitting lariats (when baited) and get a REALLY good combo for just 2 bars. the baiting potential of RFA is really large, and you can train opponents to think what they’re doing is safe during footsies and smash them with the RFA when they don’t expect it.

Still not sure how red focus will play out, and a lot of matchups are changing. You can red focus through Honda jabxxhands, and his Ex-headbutt is punishable now. On the other hand, Vega and Ken got ridiculously buffed. Vega gains easier links, an invincible reversal, combo into U2 and rebuffed cosmic heel? uh wat

As things stand Bison got screwed over. He gained very little while a lot of the cast seems to have gained a lot.

Really hoping there is more stuff that hasn’t been seen yet.

So about that new main character I was reluctant to switch to… Any suggestions?

Please, for those who are going to post opinions on changes. Do not take the S.MP changes as weak ones. Bison didn’t get what he needed and could be moving downwards in tiers, but his S.MP is definetely an excellent change.

Cr.LP -> CloseLP -> FarMP > Scissors HK
Cr.MP -> Far MP as poke
Cr.MP -> Far MP -> Scissors HK
Close HP Counter hit -> Far MP -> Scissors HK
Far MP -> Scissors HK as punish against unsafe moves.

these new combos increase Bison’s damage output greatly.

it might be usefull in some scenarios where cr.mk or cr.mp wiffs but overall i don’t think it’ll do much. and i don’t think that bison had problems with people who spam jumpback while blocking anyways.

i think bisons whole aggressive neutral game revolved around lk.sk and the scenario you got after it. with the nerf i don’t know how bison will be played aggressive anymore. i think all he can do now is turtle. wich makes him probably quite boring. at least at a highlevel.

and while i think that bisos wakeup was too strong i don’t think nerfing teleport was the right way to go. i mostly use it to bait out dp’s like for example sagats and you could punish afterwards with cr.mp into hk.sk. but i don’t think it’ll be possible if the teleport gets +5frames recovery. they should’ve removed the the instant airbornness of the normal headstomp&devil reverse imo. and maybe slightly change the ex versions as well. but i don’t like the teleport nerf at all :(.

I’m probably way too late and even suggesting this would prompt me to get blasted but. You know what would have been cool? Giving him back his Psycho Banish from CVS2.

Can you even link s.lk ->s.mp? Its still a frame slower than c.mk. Even if its a 1 frame link, I sure as hell don’t want a 1 framer as my punish combo when none of my finishers are safe.

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That pop off was too real.

Real dumb.

if all the listed are final for every character (which is doubtful) then probably vega.