How about we talk about What Low Tier Teams, meaning all low-tier or mixed low-tier with top-tier work against against Top Tier teams?
Hopefully I can get sticky on this 
megaman/cable/tron is a natural anti-msp.
but otherwise this thread is gonna cause problems
mummy ron\AA
marrow\morrigan ron
sonson ron\xxx
cammy ron\xxx
rubyheart ron\AA
list keeps going…
theres quite a few mid tier teams that can compete with top tiers. All that matter is team chemistry, and playing your team properly. Using its strength @ the right time, and countering out from your weak spots etc…
spidey ron could possibly seem worthy imo. All of his normals cross up, instant overhead, snap out gimmcks, double action off NJ which is ground breaking for a character that has an air dash, one hell of a FSD triple option setup which is pretty damn broken. He’s skillsmith because of his airdash but damn, if you’ve ever seen spidey wreck shop, its not pretty. You can swing ontop of your opponents sprite @ the ambiguous angles, and force marvel to make up its mind on which way to hit. I’ve seen a 3 piece overhead hit front\back\front\ land on the back side c.lk…
his sprite is so small that marvel forces random switch sides or switch side combo cross ups and in conjunction with his broken hit boxes, marvel doesn’t know where to put him sometimes. All you gotta do is swing randomly @ ambigous angles, land a hit, triple FSD option into a reset where your oppponent can’t call a helper, dead character. You can drop a full character in less than 10 seconds.
team z is tight doom/juggs/tron
So many factors involved, even a high-skilled player with low-tiers, will have a tough time if he’s facing off against one of those Godtier-Hogs. In addition to skill one has to be creative to make the team work, use mindgames with stuff they can’t predict, and just outmart them.
Speaking of which, i kicked some serious ass today with my Ryu/Charlie/Commando team, against such a Top char user! Eventually after 9 or so losses he resorted to every cheesey thing in the book to finally get a win, but up until that point i ruled!! :lovin:
By the way, i don’t use Anti-air assist with commando because it wouldn’t be a Low(er) tier team if i did. Besides the Anti-air shock is for filthy noobs who don’t know how to play commando on his own and are too afraid to try.
With my set-up even if i’m doing great, commando will have to fend for himself eventually while the others heal up(or if i OTG with him on a combo for extra damage, forcing him out in the open).
Sorry dude, but its downright sad how every one of those teams include Tron.
You realize its possible to still Win matches without leaning on such a crutch? From my experience relying on cheap assists leads to stagnation anyway, cause one never really improves since they’re always looking to a brainless assist to do the work for them, and make up for the flaws in their skillset.
Then once a good player comes along and punishes the assist character to death, the rest of the team is like a fish out of water.
it’s apparent you’re not the candidate.
Seriously how are you NOT trolling?
ps. i’d wreck all your teams with low tier.
dude, please, listen to what follows. No offense: you know very, very little about this game and you prove it just about every time you post.
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If anybody thinks that an assist is going to do the work for them, then they need to stop playing marvel. An asisst CAN NOT be the workhorse of a team. Even teams like MSP, the assist character (psylocke) is not the one doing all the work.
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Using an assist to make up for a flawed moveset is one of the reasons why’re they’re in the game to begin with. If that assist helps that character, then WHAT’S THE PROBLEM? It’s not Shoult’s fault that tron just so happens to make alot of characters better.
An assist is never going to win you a game. Ever. Unless the other person you’re playing REALLY sucks.
Hell, from what I’ve seen, in alot of matchups: call out tron wrong= opponent kills tron.
Tron assist isn’t insanely cheap. It actually requires a little practice to learn to use correctly.
dude, this game is not balanced. Using certain things in certain matchups will get you killed. If you want to be good at this game, you need to accept that.
Here’s some of mine:
Guile (B)/ Doom (B)/ Tron (Y)
^From my play exprience, actually has a good match agianst magneto teams.
Anarkis/ sim (B)/ cyke (B)
Omega red (grab assist)/ storm (A)/ Commando (A)
Wrong i know a great deal, i just choose a playing style in a way most would not.
I pride myself on the fact that i can kick ass with my lower tier characters, and without resorting to a cheap assist in order to help turn the tide in battle for me. Such as tron or commando’s.
Where as other players are like: “dude its just a game, play to win however you can!”. Nothing wrong with that i guess but its not my style.
That may be your opinion but in many cases players will use an assist as the very backbone of their team, without it the team probably could not function well. See it all the time.
Using an assist to make up for a flawed skillset, only perpetuates it most of the time. By choosing to fight without them, it forces the player to improve upon the gaps in their ability to make up for the absence of it.
Its like strapping on training weights. Then one day when the player has improved enough, he can go back to using the assist along with his new found skills, and be a hell of a lot better than ever before.
Now its you who sounds like you don’t know the game. In a such a team based fighter, nearly everything is situational. The right assist type can mean the difference between winning or getting Pwned.
Whatever i know you and i could debate this forever, i respect your opinion and won’t argue the issue further :wonder:
Tron makes every character almost better by default. Since low tiers really have no significant advantage over tops, they need damage output and tron provides that and some low tier characters 100x better with tron than they are with any other character in the game including tops.
Just like strider. Strider only really gets along with doom that allows him to function properly. You really can’t put on him on any other team and expect him to be able to function properly. The same for certain low tiers.
Morrigan ron is by far rediculous rush down wise. Its just as bad as magneto but take tron out of the picture, and her relayers don’t work right. She can’t wiff cancel free 50\50, she can barely 50\50 w\o her. With tron, she gets double or triple layer BACK into a tron rep. VS top tiers this is what you need because top tiers are cheap enough already.
Spidey ron becomes almost impossible to block and gets more random than anything in the game. All of spidey’s normals crossup and if you call tron, your basically forcing the game to pick a side to land a hit on. The game just doesn’t know where to put him. After you land your hit from FSD with c.lk, c.mk, free triple option. From that you can tick throw+tron, instant overhead into tron, xup into tron. If any of those follow up hits, do the same FSD into the triple option. Rinse wash repeat. Take tron out of spidey’s picture and he can barely relayer into overheads. Tron adds that block stun time unlike anyother character for spidey. Not to mention, the way her rings slide the point back can only create more random xups for spidey @ any point.
These 2 characters can sparkle offensively with tron but not w\o her. Morrigan\gambit is ok but its nothing like morrigan ron. Just like strider\doom, certain characters are only competitively playable with tron. Its not like strider\sent is any good and strider ron is a 1 time gimmick @ best. Just the way doom interacts with strider makes for the perfect combination for strider to become effective and it can be said for lowtiers with tron. There are just certain tron combinations that bring out the most potential in character just like doom does for strider.
Tron is extemely flexible as an assist because of her damage output and blockstun. 2 things that low tiers greatly need in a fight against tops that kill you in 1 hit. Whats the point of playing “fair” when the game is broken anyway? the game isn’t fair to begin with. tron lets more than 11 characters be truly playable. 20-30 characters actually become competitive playable because of her.
I’ve tried playing Gods and top tier teams, but I find I do a lot better when playing low/semi-low tiers. (2 lows/mids + 1 god).
I dont think its hard to beat a good top tier team (played by a good player) it just might take a bit more effort on your part. I do fairly well with teams like Gambit/Cykes/Tron vs MSP and MSS. Guile/Gambit/Doom vs scrub.
When playing lows vs top tier teams, you really have to have a lot of patience, but at the same time, I think you have to keep constant pressure on your opponent. Especially if you have an assist like tron that can really do damage. Even if you’re pitting guile vs sent or whatever. Also, you really dont want to give them a chance to gain momentum because it can make it hard for you to gain it back.
One advantage you have is you pretty much know what to expect when playing teams like Santhrax or MSS. You have a pretty general idea of how they play, so you can use that to your advantage. Counter call assist at the right times, know when to back off, or know when you can safely apply the pressure, etc. Of course, depending on your assist, you’ll be using them a lot more. It just depends on who and how your opponent is playing. Its not a cake-walk, though, but possible.
Here are a few vids of me playing (semi) lows vs top tier teams. You can see how keeping pressure can have positive results, even when things are looking good. And how losing momentum/not even gaining can cost you the match…
When Low Tier teams work.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5oVBvzc-ICc
…What happens when you play combofiend…LOL
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UguZzau1jLw
Yeah i admit i do try to play “fair” in a broken game. It is just fun and challenging, as opposed to the old days with my effective but BORING Cable/Sent/Cyke team.
I get a much more Satisfying sense of accomplishment too whenever i win with low tiers, especially when beating high-tier users! :lovin:
Theres no point in handicapping a characters TRUE potential. With strider, NO other character in the game opens up his game like doom does. Its not like people say, well strider does too much chip with doom so lets make it fair and not pick doom w\ him. Most people tend to say, damn top 4 is too damn good with top AA’s, how the fuck do I make s\d better or @ least be able to compete on that level.
Tron is just that flexible as an assist that she can be pretty much paired with ANY character and she’ll make that character significantly better and some are supposed to automatically get her just like strider\doom.
There are some teams in the game that have similar abuseable tactics as tron would. For instance, ruby\sonson ron is VERY good but ruby\jug\sonson is just as GOOD in a different way.
Team strong aka, juggy\hulk\colossus works GREAT together but really lose some of their options if you try to replace someone with tron. What tron would do on the team compared to what your losing doesn’t suggest tron should be on it.
Maybe it’s possible that you yourself are more skilled (and have a greater understanding) with the lower tiered characters in the game and that’s why it feels more comfortable playing as them? 
And perhaps you’re more skilled than your opponents?
I took a look at the two video links, and it was worth watching, but on second glance, I don’t think it qualifies what you said in your post:
You mentioned patience being an important factor when playing low tiers, and that is true not just of low tiers but especially with them. However, the truth is that there is no way to be patient against top tier characters played by a skilled opponent - with only one semi-exception, Magneto, because he simply must come within melee range where you can touch him too, to do damage.
Take for example, laser fly unfly laser (sentinel). Sentinel can patiently chip away at your life bar, and the only real low tier responses you can choose from all aren’t exactly safe or patient.
Take another example, full screen Magneto calls out storm for projectile assist, then dashes forward following it. Tron isn’t going to help much there, you’re left with some iffy options, taking to SJ range is bad for the most part because you lack the mobility of the top tier, just normal jumping is bad when you make a habit out of it because Mags will guard break you, and you certaintly don’t want to just sit there and block and then guess on the mixup.
You can’t out wait/patience storm or sent or cable… and even against magneto you’re really down in the priority/speed department.
When people say megaman is a counter to Magneto, I don’t think they’ve really played the matchup through. Megaman has some nice tools to keep away mags, but ultimately even simple things like typhoon assist, missing one mega blast, will ruin the day. And really, what can megaman do to magneto? Hit him with nonchipping mega blasts while chipping him a little (if it hits at all) with some assist?
I’m going offtopic but I want to make something clear. I agree :wgrin: with xxphilopiaxx that patience is essential to victory with low tiers, but ultimately that can only go so far because if the other player plays the patience game themselves with top tier characters you’ll be stuck.
It’s probably better to pick a team you’re comfortable and work from there instead with a baseline strategy and a patient mindset at most. But gameplay? Go with what works with your team.
Sounds like you haven’t played this from Megaman’s side. Jump Buster hits Storm straight in the head every time (you can also do the same thing to Doom-B even through the rocks, but the timing on that is brutal). Storm typhoon assist is an old failed anti-Megaman tactic. It’s helpful against idiots playing Megaman, but it’s easy to counter if they have a lick of sense.
What can Magneto do to Megaman? Megaman builds level, gets rockball, Magneto has to play Gradius to get in safely, and when he’s close he’s outprioritized by Megaman. That’s the only speed match-up in the game Mags loses. In Mag’s favor are his expected-damage-per-hit is significantly higher, and his resets are much more open and dangerous than Megaman’s. But Jump Buster hurts at rocket punch levels of damage (20 dumb points of damage), so you don’t need many mistakes by Magnus to mess him up.
Megaman’s matchups are (in order from best against to worst against): Magneto, Storm, Sent, Cable. He has significantly harder times against certain assists-on-point that he does against Storm or Mags. In any significant match, I only know a handful of players who would pick Magneto against Megaman. It’s not the smart match-up.
Megaman is boring. Don’t play him.
I don’t think there’s any real news in this arena. Rogue, Guile, Cammy, Charlie, Cyclops, etc - they’re all still about as studly and flawed as they have been in the past.
Good points. I wouldnt go as far as to say Im more skilled than my opponents, my opponents being the usual bunch of people I play with. I know Im more skilled when it comes to playing low tiers and I think i do well because Im more comfortable and confident when it comes to playing these types of characters. Even though I know to play teams like Santhrax, Scrub, etc-not well, but I know how they function, I’d still rather choose a team like Gambit/Tron/Cykes because I am more confident in my skills with that team than with Santhrax, for example.
By patient I meant that you’re most likely not gonna have the type of priorty, mobility, damage output, etc as these top tier characters/teams. It going to be very difficult for you get close enough to your opponent to do any damage. You’re going to have to wait for that opprotune moment where you might able to squeeze in. So, wait for those moments, get in and do what you can.
Don’t be so quick to judge. I think you’re making some outlandish comments because you favor Megaman. But anyway, consider this; almost anything Megaman can do, Spiral can do much better. In basic:
- Spiral chips on her projectile, Megaman does not (and I know you’re not zoning away at Magneto with the red charged bolt)
- Spiral can cover super jump advances from any angle with her circle of swords
- Spiral has an excellent air hp AND the ability to quickly change her SJ height which megaman only has a wall jump which is inferior.
- Spiral trap >> Rockball trap.
- Spiral’s supers >> Megaman’s supers.
And a lot of people are reluctant to play spiral, let alone megaman. Storm projectile assist does work against megaman. Megaman’s trap isn’t a constant lockdown, I can easily call and walk forward while blocking as Magneto to get rid of any j.hp’s you attempt to do while storm covers the ground (which you will then afterward land into storm’s projectile). It’s very difficult to do that against spiral, because once the trap has begun, there is literally no breathing space.
This is just Storm’s assist too. What if I’m not playing MSP and I’m playing Row or MSS? I will be counter calling you non stop with MSS, because there is no way you’re going to be able to shut me out without an assist. If I’m playing Row, your assist gets hit by cable AAA, that’s a good 3 seconds for me to rush you down. Let alone consider the possibilities of counter AHVB.
Magneto playing Gradius to get in? No. Against Spiral yes. But against Megaman? Just play careful and you’ll be okay.
i dont know why you brought spiral in to the mix, he was just talkin about from megamans side and who he is most effective against. i don’t think you’ve played a good megaman, he has speed advantage at the beginning of the match and has a blocked string that gives him just enough space to keep magneto off and call an assist to start his keepaway game. his launcher out prioritizes a jump in magneto, the fireballs fuck opponents assist up, and if he has rocks or somethin that damn soccer ball can get annoying.
although once you realize that, its just like playing against spiral. be patient, get in, realize what moves you’re outprioritized by, and go for the randomnessssss. its just that since you’re playing defensive for so long just to GET IN (with or without a successful hit) i think magneto is at disadvantage. but anytime magneto gets in control, he’s IFC
See, that’s what I mean. this paragraph turns itself inside out. In high level marvel you HAVE to be cheap in order to win. This goes back to me saying that THIS GAME IS NOT BALANCED. This game is broken. And to win you have to be broken.
Then honestly, when somebody really start pushing the game on you, you’re going to lose. In marvel, you cannot afford to handicapp your characters. If you don’t realize that yet, then you simply haven’t played anybody good enough yet.
I never said that a team could function at max level without a certain asisst. but I don’t think there’s a team in the game that uses the asisst as the backbone/workhorse. Name one. Sent does get ALOT better with capcom asisst, but the robot is still doing like, 90% of the work.
Think about it, you’re trying to tell me that ONE MOVE set on ONE BUTTON is the backbone of a team.
It’s not like sent can’t with without commando. and Magneto and Storm can definatly win without psylocke.
I agree here, but you still can not expect to win just because you have a certain assist. I you do, you’re a scrub and need to rethink things.
Yeah, but so could blocking correctly. However, that’s not going to win you games on it’s own.
EDIT: Another thing, isn’t this a thread about using low tiers agianst tops?
I mean, having thought about that, what exatcly is your point?
qft
With the special exception that Megaman has one frame attacks, so you cannot use the full array of resets on him. There’s options, but Megaman’s jab breaks a variety of resets. It’s not tough to counter, but again, you’re disrupting Magneto’s game pretty significantly.
No, I hate Megaman. He’s just good.
Great, I was taking about Megaman. I hate Megaman, I despise Spiral. I appreciate skill with her, but I’d generally rather rip out a tooth than play as her.
Generally you’re an idiot if you’re using charged buster. There’s only a few very specific uses for that (such as giving you an assist save during HSF). Since 90% of MM players have Cable next, we’re all perfectly content to jump around building meter. We’re going to lay out a lovely pattern of busters and rockballs for you to come through when you realize that there’s not a lot of great options for Magnus.
Duh. Spiral’s better than Megaman. That’s not news. 
The tiers are here, let’s move on. Megaman’s supers generally suck. The only useful one is Hyper Mega Man, and even that - why bother? They badly nerfed his supers in MvC2. Not news.
And rockball’s not the absolute best choice anyways. The assist-punishing resets off of Tornado Hold are phenomenal. It depends on your game plan.
Well, yeah, Megaman sucks and he’s generally boring to play as. He’s not very maneuverable at all.
I wasn’t aware that Magneto walking forward and blocking was a top tier Magneto strategy. You’ve got to let Magnus players know about that. Otherwise it seems like you’re just burning clock and Megaman is gaining meter, which is a trade-off I will take every time. The only serious Megaman player I’ve seen of who doesn’t have Cable on the team to eat up all those built meters is Dasrik, and I imagine he lets Blackheart burn those lovely meters. And yes I’m aware you can build meter too and I don’t really care, because only with Team Row do I really think your building meter is as strategically advantageous as my building meter. Every other match-up, it’s a win for the Megaman player.
shrug Magneto stuck on the other side of the screen realizing he’s not gaining much from Storm-A is a huge win for me. I know this fight from the onset of thought - “Let’s try Storm-A!” to the best counter to the best counter to the best counter (which is where the line of attack / thought ends and they stop using Storm-A). You don’t play against any good Megaman players. It’s OK. The only Megaman players I trust right now would be MegamanSteve (NY), Ranma (TX), Lamerboi (Cali), and maybe me (Seattle).
I know most matchups for Tron and Megaman backwards and forwards at this point. This is a good one for Megaman, not a good one for Magneto.
Awesome. Only I play against Row, who made Team Row, and JMar, who’s basically OK with MSS. You counter call me, you’re dead. And how are you counter-calling me with your promixity based assists and me playing keep-away… ? Sorry, I’ve played that match-up a thousand times (probably literally at this point), and that’s not how it works. Magnus in Mag/Cable/Sent or MSS gets raped by Megaman/Cable/Tron. Very old news.
You can try to rush me down, but I have move priority, so if I can block your options are pretty goddamned limited.
I’ve had this fight before. Everybody has seen me have this fight before. Think of a top Magnus player and ask them how they did against it (since at this point I think I’ve played everyone except maybe Yipes). It’s a tough match-up and my execution sucks, but even then I’ll still scrub this match out because Megaman has significant tactical advantages here. Magnus-based counters are inferior and generally fail.
I agree with “just play careful” part, but – just switch to a non-Magnus-centric team, really. There’s no need to play this matchup unless you’re a masochist.
Also, Amingo is a lot of fun to play.
There’s a limited listing of interesting low tier teams here:
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http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Marvel_vs_Capcom_2#Top_Low_Tier_Teams
but it looks like it got stupid-ed a bit ago.
Various generally good non-Tron-based low tier teams:
Gambit/Ryu/Guile
Gambit/Sakura/Capcom
Guile/Charlie/Iron Man
Amingo/Thanos/Jin-expansion
And Bryheem will beat you with Cable/Sent/any-antiair-in-the-game, which is hilarious. Cable/Sent/Shuma and Cable/Sent/Jin-AA had me in stitches.