Low tier ratios?

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
21

oops^^^

mid-edit while you posted up.

IMO this is an important topic for Marvel. The older the game gets, the more great players will gravitate towards low-tier, if only for laughs/rekindling interest/new set of challenges… etc.

Even if/when Low Tier gets established as a tournament event, the rules could vary from place to place (and should IMO, perhaps with the exception of Evo where money on the line makes a concrete Rule-set damn necessary). Having to adapt your team and strategy from event to event would reward the great players and keep it fresh.

My only real gripe with a system that allows Tron, but straight-out bans, Blackheart, Spiral, Strider is that it’s effectively supporting a rush-centric playstyle, and banning a lock-down style.

This is just a sketch, but I’m saying let people pick the lock-down characters, but make them conform to a point system when it comes to assist selection. Something that bans projectile assists, Doom AA, anything that gets you control of the horizontals, etc. so that now you’ve forced gaps into trap patterns.

I’m all for a system that bans the absolute minimum of characters, even if it means adding in place handicaps on specific characters-- simply because even though on paper Dhalsim/Blackheart/Spiral/Strider/Doom/Cyke stand up to God-tier, in tournament play, they still rarely do, or are even used for that matter. So having a tournament that lets you pick mid-tiers is sounding good too, if it can be balanced out.

22

There should be one standard for a low tier system. If it varies from area to area, there is never going to be a general consensus for a low tier tourney. Then when EVO rolls around, you have everyone arguing whats truly low tier to begin with.

Aside from BH\strider\spiral, there are low tier versions of lock down characters.

Ruby heart- spikes and ghosts behind tron are nasty for zone and her super is redunkculous.

marrow- all though she does have amazing speed, its her ability relayer over and over and if you do anything wrong with your helpers, trip+tron, qcb+pp? for a quick 70%. Her qcf+lp is pretty damn great for those easy relayers. She has no instant overhead so she doesn’t have a 50\50 game. Thus, she has to rely on her speed and relayers to force pressure.

mega man - another prime example of range\lock down character for a low tier tourney. busters w\ rockball setups will get dumb.

metal wolvie - he’s anti push blockable w\ speed up. He’ll be on you 24\7 with lock down strings into 50\50’s. If you got multiple bars, use your last little amount of speed up time to relayer with tron and activate again.

gambit - cards, s.fp, qcb\qcf+kk, off the wall crossups, srk+lp. He’s all over place working zone into easy combo’s that do hella life.

then, you still have your rush down characters like morrigan, chun, spidey, omega red, rogue etc…

we already know what characters 5-12 will and can do. Whats the point of allowing them in? they will get play in any big tourney but characters 13-56 wont. I’m tired of seeing the same shit over and over and by allowing 5-12, its going to be the same old shit. By simply removing them from the game, people are forced to actually dig into the roster to find characters that are also worth playing. Also, by omitting 5-12, you won’t have people horing 5-12. Why bother picking anything other than those 8 characters when those 8 characters will beat the other 30 something pretty easily? Instead, you’ll have people horing out 13-40. Which is quite a difference in the amount of playable characters for a low tier tourney. W\O the gods or tops being there, people will start picking actual low tier shit.

23

Shoult, you’re makin’ a good argument. I’d be happy to play in a low tier tourney under those rules. They’re simple, balanced, and allow for a wide array of team selection options. I’d throw some rep at ya if I could.

I don’t want to come across as beating a dead, flaming horse. That’s not my intent at all. :smokin: I’m just saying that even though I’ve seen characters 5-12 on winning teams, it’s always been when they’re paired up with God-tier, and/or Doom AA.

I want to see stuff like…

Blackheart/Son-son/Anakaris vs. Morrigan/Tron/Psy

Strider/Bison/Ken vs. Cyke/Tron/Cap. America

It’s just too bad that there’s really not a feasible classification for a tournament that would involve the lower Mid-tier characters, because if you run a mid-tier tourney, as you mentioned, its 5-12 plus Doom or Tron or Psy gettin played/payed all day.

lol I’m still pickin’ Ruby/Gief/Tron anyway.

24

im looking at this from a different standpoint as alot of other people. low tier play pretty much is creating a new god tier but big deal. its just an excuse to bring in some fresh characters and strategies.

trying to create a completely even playing field, via the point system, is just to much effort IMO. but i would gladly conform to it, if it means actual tourneys. besides, i think blackheart and doom AAA would be banned anyway, which would hurt stider, spiral, and other trapping nonsense. this would also create a gap in good anti airs which would encourage the use of ken or sonson ect…

edit: either way im picking megaman/charlie/gambit

25

heh, ruby\gief ron was my gief team too. You should try gief\charlie ron. Charlie is versatile as fuck when it comes to low tier teams and he’ll pretty much work with any character.

This isn’t my low tier system by the way. Its mixups. We talked about what can’t be in low tier tourneys before and even tried a low tier system with tron projectile being banned. Eventually, it came back to just banning top 12 and sticking w hat for the time being. I honestly think its fair and you can call it a tron tourney if you like lol.

26

ban top 4, im, wm, cyke, spiral, strider cannot have doom/Beta, BH cannot team with Doom/Beta, can pick tron but not her assist

from that as a standard, ratio the remaining characters.

what you guys think?

27

it’s pretty cool to work with the underused duos. I dont see the problem with having certain duo’s take over as the dominant play structure.

I’m pretty familiar with bh/doom/cyc/spiral already, they’re not low tier. It’s like tyson beasting on a bumjoe and callin it fair cuz he was wearing his gloves.

psy/cap/ken/cammy/sonson/chunli/morrigan and other char all have their function within the mid tier counter matchup game.

megaman with good ground control+invincible helper still holds it down vs tron based rushdown squads.

basic jump kick marvel characters(charlie,marrow,jill) they still compete with tron based rushdown teams. give them invincible aaa+ solid ground control and it’s pretty hard to get them off you. they’re also able to rushdown while counter calling tron pretty often. Some of these char have good assist punish with super(ruby/marrow+ken are pretty crazy at rushing down while cancelling tron out)

the teams that start to stand out kinda obvious, but with practice, countering the tron whoring is practical.

bad ass non tron team /

megaman/rubyheart/capcom

megaman/gambit/capcom

ruby/gambit/ken

marrow/gambit/invincible aaa

morrigan+ invincible aaa + ghetto projectile = boss

cream does dominate but at the least you still have a variety of purely mid tier squads. different team structures will still win. :xeye:

28

^
I’ve been playing around with Felicia/Megaman/Ken, it works quite well if you don’t play like a scrub. (I.e. me half the time :P)

I’m contemplating switching Felicia up for someone else, possibly Sonson… any thoughts on this?

29

You didn’t think this through because its still broken.

Strider\iceman is still going to be deadly as hell.

marrow\doom is fucking awesome.

tron stops mando AA to counter his assist. By taking her out, you lave the door open for mando AA to be unstopable.

BH\doom with photon assist is fucking stupid.

iceman\doom

and doom on point will throw pink shit all day vs low tiers. All he needs is a functioning team and he won’t stop doing it. Especially if he has BH AA. It will be B5 all over again.

and I’m positive I’m still missing a few combinations and this just came off the top of my head w\in a few minutes. Just get rid of the mother fuckers so nothing comes in through the back door. Doom is not low tier. Just by taking them out, you don’t have to form a ratio system or possibly any other dumb ass duo’s that someone could possibly think of.

30

I wanna see a good Felicia. I can’t figure out how to play well with her at all.

Son-son on projectile assist would be fun with that set-up since you already have an AAA. Monkeys plus Megaman Busters is looking stoopid. Ken/Son monkeys has silly mixups goin on too.

Felicia wants a double jump bad IMO.

Edit: I’m sold on straight ban on God/Top/Mids. Too much shit I didn’t consider.:blush::party:

31

dash poke dash throw dash poke dash throw, trip, tron, counter shit with super kitty litter. regular kitty litter is darn good too. some good jumpin attacks also. I need to get some vids of Franx (low tier user in Chi)

he uses felicia/charlie/venom/sonson/BH/iceman mainly

he doesn’t really use tron or doom assists.

32

^^

Awesome. Felicia was on my OG marvel team back in 2000. Funny b/c that was my same basic strategy, but with a lot more scrubby Team Super stuff. Vids would be niiice.

33

this is why low tier doesnt work for tourney. i like santhrax over all, thanks.

34

Low tier does work for a low tier tourney except everyone and their mama wants a damn ratio system for some reason. I don’t understand that concept. What is the point of a ratio system in which great characters are allowed to be in BUT you have to take away shit to make it work. It gets too complicated. I broke down your low tier rules in 3 minutes and found several broke teams. W\ a ratio system, you’ll never fully grasp what someone will try to sneak into a low tier ratio system. Too many angles to think about.

its simple folks
**
Ban the following characters: top 4, cyke, IM\WM, strider\doom, spiral, BH, dhalsim**

everything else is allowed. Its not complicated and its fair. It doesn’t turn into a brain teaser to properly organize a team… is there something not fair about these rules that I don’t understand? you still have your keep away teams and rush down teams.

that characters I’m saying should be banned are primarily the characters that the ratio system is trying to promote outside of top 4. Then with a ratio system, you have to make sure that these guys can’t use each others great assists but you also have to make sure that no low tiers + mid tiers have broken function. And even if you take away these guys great assists with others, they have other assists when combined with a mid tier character that are still a force.

That ratio crap gets out of control. Take a look @ where the starter of the thread setup his ratio system, then look @ yours. There’s flaws everywhere and to make it right, you have to complicate it. Eventually, it will become to complicated and no one will give a fuck like it is now. For 1, it will be people arguing who goes where.] Then, it starts ending up that you need to start banning shit because the ratio system isn’t correct. Its just a big mess. Fuck that bullshit and just ban the characters that are forcing you to create a ratio system :crybaby:

35

mega\sonson projectile\ken will get dumb. :nunchuck: thats a pretty good squad.

felicias throw can be mashed iirc for big life. She’ll scratch the fuck outta ya easy. Once your opponent loses 30% life due to a throw, they’ll eventually start moving around and thats when its easy to hit someone. Basically, use cammy’s game plan but with felicia’s game.

36

yes throw ftw, and it’s sooo cute!

shoult’s low tier plan is how it should be, it’s what I think is best too.

doom or bh or dhalsim with lesser characters is still too boss…even great characters who have great mixups, 50/50s, etc. will have an uphill climb for them. Most of them simply don’t have the mobility/maneuverability to get around that shit when thrown out correctly (i.e. actually throwing shit out realizing that the opponent can’t maneuver out of it instead of just throwing it out randomly with that certain plan in mind).

when I saw doom in that one low tier tournament (the gabe/anak vids) I was like “WTF!?” if the doom player had any idea how to keep away or rather actually tried for certain characters (instead of trying to mix it up and try some rush down) that shit would own too much. anakaris’ nj/air dash/sj/wavedash (lol it’s crap)/etc. can’t get around that shit when the keepaway certain chars. do it properly…and it’s the same for most other lows too (though maybe not as much of an extent)

37

personally i dont think dhalsim should be ban, you shouldnt ban a character if he decides to run away the whole match. running away is ALOT harder than it sounds. the other person could pick all AA and dhalsim would get owned.

i still think trons assist should be banned. does way too much damage on its own.

38

correction: running away is a lot harder when running from god tier and tops. anything lower and the BUMS=ggpo for them…you do know how well dhalsim can run away right? even for some tops it’s evil to face.

tron assist I think should be allowed, granted with banning all those other characters. learn to block…she can be beat out as long as you call out your shit correctly…don’t mash on assist dumbly, and she is generally a very upclose and personal assist…generally

39

Sonson Anti Air is pretty good as well. Not only as an assist, but as a move too, which goes right into her QCF + PP, which DHC’s great into Hyper Megaman timed right… then maybe ken’s Shinryuken? I’ll have to test that out.

40

I wouldn’t bother, unless it will kill someone, or it sets up something really good it’s pointless and usually a waste of meter. DHC to bring next character in safely and start working with them, in your case, megaman. it doesn’t seem like it would connect correctly anyway

keep in mind, the second sonson’s stick hits coming down, you can dhc and the stick will still be hitting them/completing. so you could probably connect a beat plane, maybe bring to corner, shinryuken, which then could set up otg juggles to throw+assist>>combo to shinryuken all over again/overhead to super shit (overhead plus mega buster assist>super?)