They say that in SoCal? Or Norcal/IPlayWinner much? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I play a pretty good Yun in my local scene. I will see if I can get some match videos up in a few days, but I have experimented extensively with AAs in this matchup and can confirm Sako’s use of them.
Far st. hk works generally only works well if you know exactly what the Yun (or Yang) is going to do from a certain range. It cannot really be done on reaction vs Yun (Yang’s DK is slower so maybe if you’re really fast at gauging distance it can be done). It starts up sooooo slow. I don’t know how Sako landed it against such a low DK in that set. The sure fire way I’ve landed it is just after the match starts, walk forward slightly (a half step animation to full step) and if Yun jumps forward and does anything you will trade or beat it clean. Alternatively if he walks forward and then jumps you get close st. HK to the juggle of your choice. He can avoid it completely by delaying a HK DK but then you just switch positions and go back to neutral. If he neutral jumps and sticks something out (likely HP) you will also beat it or whiff completely, depending on distance. This kind of gives you an idea of what the ranges is like.
Jump back MP is great because it moves Ibuki’s lower half backwards. If you jump just after Yun does and you stick out your mp quickly and he tries to divekick, he can only get your fist in his face, rather than hitting your legs as is often the case with many of Ibuki’s normals. The problem with that is if you whiff completely (say you anticipated a DK wrongly, or he does it really low) he can walk forward and st. MP you pretty much for free.
Jump back LP is used by a lot of other characters as well (Abel, Cody) because it often has a downward angle similar to jump back MP, covering the most vulnerable part of your hitbox (the legs). It’s not a huge deterrent though, because it barely does any damage and is much less active than LP.
LK DP is good for the same thing close st. HK is for, except it takes a bit faster reaction time, and will probably not switch sides if they’re jumping forward from very close. It also works reasonably well against lLK DK and MK DK if done at the right time. The energy wave thing will be out for long enough to counteract telegraphed divekicks. I actually get this to work because of shortcuts most often, not conscious input on my part.
Slide isn’t that good because you’ll often get tagged in the back while DK crosses you up or just eat a LK DK while you try to slide under. If you’re at the right range it’s a good option though, but you’d have to just between midrange and close range I think.
I’ve had instances where EX DP will just plain lose, Ibuki will stay grounded, and you’ll eat a full combo for your trouble (sucks). Too early and you whiff because of it’s narrow vertical range, too late and you get that lovely scenario above. Takes timing.
B. MP definitely gets counterhit alot for me, especially if the Yun switches back and forth from doing delayed dk or normal jumpins to the lowest HK or MK DK possible. And this is with me on the lookout for jumps. He just slides right under b. MP as soon as it becomes active in the latter case, and you get counterhit plus combo. It’s just really hard to gauge and react with if Yun’s jumpins are varied. St. MP works much better in most of these situations because it is active for a tad longer, starts up a tad faster, and Ibuki doesn’t step forward to do it; instead pivoting in place and keeping her blasted legs out of the way.
This is just what I’ve found, personally. I’m not sure how accurate it is vs. the very best, but the Yun I face seems good to me.
As for the U1 choice, I would guess it’s to stop dumb TK pressure for tons of damage. Sagat already can’t zone that well vs Ibuki as soon as she gets 1 bar. You can lame it out with Kunai, slides and focus dash until then, in which case you move in to just outside of reactable range for tiger shots. A couple more hits/ focuses and you have an ultra. Now Sagat can’t zone, and he has to gamble after his safe TK with DP, normal or jump forward. He still has those annoying normals from midrange (st. mk ugh), but EX neckbreaker works well as a whiff punish if he autopilots his button presses.
I dunno about E. Ryu. Axe Kick is already pretty reactable with U2 while it starts up if he wants to cancel into it upclose for blockstring pressure, so I don’t know why U1 is good here.
Mingo and other Ibukis could give more insight. I hope this is all good info…
Also, quick question. At 13:42 or so, Sako uses corner Raida, dash forward, cr. lp for an unblockable. It says it only works on Akuma in the charts. Testing it out on Yun (because F Yun), it seems to work on him if the Raida is done from near max range. If you cancel TC4 point blank into it, it becomes a normal crossup. It’s really weird. My recording is dash, dash, dash, st. mp, st. mk xx lk tsumuji, st. lp, st. mk xx ex tsumuji, hp raida, dash, cr. lp, jump forward lk. I don’t know if I’m timing it in a specific fashion or what, but it’s definitely unblockable vs Yun in this instance. Is this unblockable universal? Is that why “does not work” hasn’t been filled in? Or is it just untested?
Sako was using kara Raida, maybe that can change something.
Yeah, what you say about Yun is no news but it’s still good to be remembered. You can also jump back kunai against him. In any case, not antiairing Yun is the… less horrible solution you can use. And then… Guess to get out of his pressure haha
About U1 vs Sagat, you can also punish TU FADC, which is a good argument to make him think twice before trying it.
I don’t know about this corner setup for Yun, but I’d personally rather keep Yun cornered with a safe jump/meaty, cause he’d probably be able to get out/reset himself with LK DP
Kara raida is just used to catch your opponent with raida, cause in some cases, after a loop (especially after a double loop) you are left too far from your opponent to catch him with regular raida. This should not change the setup since you start with a forward dash, which brings you right to the opponent’s face. Raida’s range is not bigger than a forward dash =)
Not to mention sometimes he’s just straight up showing off.
Still alive?
Any new setups, combos, or match up knowledge I should be aware of?
Omg HE’S BACK!!!
And I’ve been living in New York for one year and a half now and still haven’t seen his face. NVNiko bitches!
I’m not sure why he picks U1 against Sagat; my only guess is that he is confident enough using EX Neckbreaker and Slide to nullify Sagat’s fireball game. And U1 is certainly useful to have vs dp xx FADC, so Sagat is stripped of his get outta jail card.
Against E.Ryu, U1 punishes all of his Axe Kicks on block (except HK Axe Kick, since that one is +1 on block). I personally think reacting to it with U2 before the Axe Kick even starts up is really hard (17f startup lol), and I believe it’s hard for many other players as well. Otherwise we’d see people dp that shit on reaction (and consistently). Not to mention E.Ryu can blockstring into some of his Axe Kicks.
Did you test it to work on both Akuma and Yun or just Yun?
Raida (corner) , forward dash , st.MP (15f) , j.LK
is also an unblockable on Yun. cr.LP is 13f, so maybe you didn’t time the whole thing perfectly and accidentally got 2f extra in your recorded setup?
We should talk about the Sako vs Keona (Abel) ft5.
I’m really surprised at how this Abel player did so well against Sako. Perhaps Sako was not taking it seriously, or he wasn’t used to playing an unorthodox Abel, but Keona was basically playing balls to the wall. Steps kicks everywhere. Dash in like no tomorrow. Auto footsies, and it somehow all worked lol. Got 2 meters? Step kick into Change of Direction (CoD) xx FADC to be safe* and act as hitconfirm. Midrange random EX CoD. Wakeup with everything possible. Etc.
I bet a little bit more patience, and a lot more st.LP and cr.MP spam, would have punished Keona pretty badly for the “randomness” (or perhaps calculatedness?). But eh, what do I know; I’m just a freebuki.
*I just tested it. Abel is either +3 or +4 on CoD xx FADC. Damn that is good, no wonder he spams it lol.
Also some setups that I noticed from Sako vs Keona ft5, and Sako vs Ryan Hart:
(I’m kinda lazy to test, so I’ll just post them here in case someone ever does)
Sako vs Keoma
Abel - 1:13
forward throw , st.MP , j.MK
Ibuki - 3:15
Neckbreaker , walk back , st.LP , sj.HP
Ibuki - 7:45
st.MP , st.MK xx LK Tsumuji , st.LP , cr.HK , st.MP , cr.LK , sj.LK
what is Abel on CoD xx FADC? EX CoD xx FADC?
Abel - 7:54
(corner) forward throw , walk back , st.MP , j.MK
Ibuki - 9:17
Neckbreaker , walk back , st.LP , sj.MK
Abel - 10:46
back throw (into corner) , st.LP , j.MK
Ibuki 12:21
Neckbreaker , slight step forward , j.LK
Sako vs Ryan Hart
Ibuki - 9:31
Raida (corner) , forward dash , f+LK , j.MK
Ibuki - 11:34
Raida (corner) , cr.HP , j.LK
Abel is my alt, but I don’t know if all of these setups are actually setups, or if they’re just Ibuki specific. In many cases Abel will whiff a normal and walk a tiny bit and hit a super ambiguous j. mk. In most cases it’s st. lp or st. lk, especially after forward or back throw. He has safe jumps off both forward throw and back throw as well as falling sky (in addition to a corner unblockable against the shotos), so I guess Keoma could have modified those based on his knowledge and timing.
I don’t know how interested you guys are in watching other character’s tutorial videos, and I’m quite loath to share tech, but the Ibuki brotherhood must remain strong lol. This Abel one also least has awesome music and nice combo eye candy:
[details=Spoiler]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kODyosWzfw#at=198
[/details]
And this one covers some of his more common safejumps. It says AE, but none of his 2012 changes really affect these at all. I think Keoma might have modified some of these:
[details=Spoiler]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=ZtjrKkPagbM[/details]
These cover most, if not all, of Keoma’s bases.
From my view, Keoma seemed very good, seemingly on par or just above the only other Abel anyone knows, Rico Suave. Juicebox doesn’t count anymore. His use of armor cancel roll was on point, and is generally a good strategy in this matchup. Completely nullifies Kunai use, but loses to empty jump grab or delayed jump on wakeup. I do believe Sako delayed his at some point during the set to counter it too, as well as going for stand up pressure on wakeup to establish the threat of grab. If the Abel realises you’re doing the delay thing and your delay is too big, he can probably EX Falling Sky you. Keoma tried that in the last match I think, to no avail. Sako also did jump in jab for in a safe jump setup later in the set, I think the reason for this was to blow up the armor cancel roll. HP, if absorbed, acts the same as if blocked in regards to hitstop animation yes? LP hitstop is shorter, allowing Sako to grab on reaction. He also stopped using Kunai a lot in later matches, obvious adaptation to Keoma’s armor cancel, and Keoma couldn’t block either the jump ins or the pressure afterwards. From there it was simply combo him to victory.
I wouldn’t say Keoma’s footsies were autopilot, he was just working with what he has/ what Ibuki was giving him. Abel’s offense falls off heavily at a certain range. In the first couple matches, Keoma was staying just inside that range. It’s the point where sweep, st. LK and f. MK will all hit. This gives him a proper whiff punish and mixup generator in f. MK, a good preemptive normal in st. LK, and a risky but heavy pay off normal in sweep. Sako learned to read this range very quickly, and proceeded to stay out of it until Keoma whiffed a normal, and then walk in to where Ibuki could apply some footsies pressure using st. LP and st. MK, because if she’s out of range for Abel, she’s out of range for herself as well. He also started dashing in and getting in Abel’s face a lot more, and applying airborne pressure while there with overhead and f. HK, great tools considering Abel’s huge size and his slow crouch tech. Keoma couldn’t adjust to this, and I totally understand why. He’d have to start using Abel’s dash to get in vs whiffed lengthy normals (a bit like Makoto), which Sako just wasn’t using after a certain point OR walk forward and block a lot, like Dudley. But Abel doesn’t like to block.
I also think, Keoma’s balls to the wall attitude could probably be attributed to putting on a good show, as could Sako’s liberal flashiness (he’s always flashy though). However, balls to the wall is pretty much how Abel plays. You’re unsafe in most situations, and your offense is very flawed and risky in certain areas, as opposed to other rushdown characters like Cammy for instance. You have to be either fearless, or a couple steps ahead, maybe both. As for wakeup with everything, Abel doesn’t like to block, like I said. Noone does, but Abel haaaaates it, because his defense is so bad. I think it’s worse than Ibuki’s. Even with tons of meter, all his escapes carry heavy risks and almost always lose to throw. In my case I block much more as Ibuki than as Abel. Abel’s crouch tech is bad, his backdash is bad. His reversals are all grab-able or beaten by airborne normals…Up close Ibuki has the tools to wreck him, which becomes obvious from this set.
I didn’t mean to take anything away from Keoma. He’s easily probably the best Abel I’ve seen. I just don’t agree with how he was winning.
What’s the point of using armor cancelled rolls, when you can just do EX roll without the armor? Was he trying to build some ultra while he was at it? Also why not armor cancel into a regular roll to save meter?
I don’t believe Abel’s wakeup is worse than Ibuki’s. It’s not an EX dp, but he definitely has more options than Ibuki has. In fact he has an option for nearly everything once he has meter. Obviously they’re not safe options (no wakeup option is perfectly safe, except maybe Akuma teleport lol), but neither is Ibuki’s EX dp.
I’ve tried to armor cancel into regular roll…I don’t think it works. I can perform EX roll after absorbing a safe jump from Ibuki, but I can’t get the regular one. I think it might just be an odd mechanic to armor cancel. It works for every special except roll. Even supers and ultras. You can try it yourself and check it out, Armor cancelling on wakeup is not very hard.
As for why he armor cancelled rather than using regular EX roll, yes building ultra might have something to do with it, but I think autocorrect might also gave something to do with it too. The reason why armor cancel is so easy on wakeup is because of the lenient reversal input window. You just input the special, wait till just before the move is absorbed and input the second special. For armor cancel to EX roll you just hit a button, almost with plink timing but it’s more forgiving. Now, if you try reversal EX Roll, you might end up getting Wheel Kick instead, like when Ibuki gets EX Hien instead of Kazegiri. Armor cancelling might avoid that outcome won’t it? I’m not absolutely sure how input correction works, but Abel only has one QC+P motion assigned to him, so he’s in no danger of getting an errant special out of it.
If Ibuki builds 3 bars she has a safe DP. If Abel builds 3 bars he has…grabbable specials. I mean, granted her DP can get DPed by better ones, but it beats more options than Abel’s EX TT or his EX roll. I think the specificity of his options is what makes his wakeup worse, not his want of options.
If EX CoD didn’t autocorrect, then EX roll shouldn’t autocorrect either, is my logic.
If Ibuki builds 3 bars, she has has a safe DP on block that turns into a -1 situation. As a DP, it is only useful when your opponent is right in your face and you know it will have to hit or get blocked. It is useless against vortex setups, ambiguous setups, is difficult to autocorrect, is badly unsafe on whiff and block, and can be safe jumped. And it only really sets up a mixup via SJC cd mixups (but have to commit to the cl.st.HK after FADC).
If Abel builds 3 bars, he has a safe EX CoD on block that turns into a +3 or +4 frame advantage to start his own pressure (or combo into ultra!). Alternatively he can just let it be blocked and enjoy -3 (1f punish except vs grapplers). He has EX roll to get out of vortex setups and most ambiguous setups. Usually don’t have to worry about autocorrecting or whiffing (just don’t whiff it in your opponent’s face). Armor cancel into TThrow to beat safe jumps. Grab-able specials is a problem? Just use regular TThrow. Excellent damage and you can start your own mixups off it, and off EX CoD. Abel has so many options that when your opponent tries to pressure him on wakeup, your opponent can put himself in a mixup. They’re not low risk/high reward but they’re still incredibly useful. It’s like CViper’s wakeup, in the sense that if your opponent successfully pressured you on your wakeup, then that means you had an option to counter it.
If I had the option, I’d gladly trade Abel’s wakeup game for Ibuki’s.
Ibuki DP FADC backwards isn’t -1 Mingo, is it? That’s what I meant. Not DP FADC forwards. That isn’t what I would do if I wanted to get out of pressure, though I guess if I was in the corner it would have to be my choice. I wasn’t referring specifically to Abel’s wakeup when I was talking about his defense…I meant the standup aspects of it too. His huge hitbox makes him susceptible to frametraps and pressure that other characters would simply not have to take. And his lack of quick normals with good hitboxes makes crouch teching a pain. He can’t just mash SPD like Gief to avoid upclose pressure, unless he has the bar. Counterhits are very painful because almost everyone has Abel specific combos. If he wants to EX CoD or EX TT out of pressure, he’s very likely to get thrown. Most players are on their guard when it comes to this.
Grabbable specials is indeed a problem. The Abel-Akuma matchup in Vanilla was a very hard 6-4 exactly because of this problem. Here’s how it went. Take the typical example of Akuma’s vortex, Demon Flip Divekick after double dash. If Abel tries to armor cancel that, he gets hit, because the setup is delayed enough to make the TT come out before Akuma touches the ground. So now you’re thinking, okay, I’ll just let the EX CoD go and not cancel. Akuma will then simply use Palm instead and OS grab (or Ultra). All bases covered. Now you have to make hard guesses between these two very, very bad situations. In addition, Vanilla Akuma’s recovery on Demon Flip throw was such that he could OS after. In essence, you could do nothing on wakeup. All EX moves including armor cancels are grabbed. Regular TT throw whiffed. Falling Sky whiffed. Backdash punished for free with OS sweep or reset into more pressure. It’s not like that now thank God, but Akuma’s vortex has been much more fleshed out now, and there is more to consider.
Risking a wakeup situation on TT is not something Abels regularly do, and for good reason. It carries too much risk. Keoma did it once that entire set IIRC, though Sako might not have given him the opportunity. Once empty jump grab (or even walk up neutral jump) makes it into the equation any EX moves or TTs on Abel’s part come at a potentially heavy price. Guess wrong, you lose a bar or eat a heavy combo and get put back on the ground. Then there’s the few examples of airborne normals that combo. The Rose mathcup is a nightmare because of this and her footsies.
Wakeup wise, Abel is better than Ibuki. I don’t think nullifying safe jumps with a bar is as good as it might sound though. Gouken nullifies those too, and his wakeup isn’t particularly strong, just very specific. Standing defense wise, Ibuki’s backdash, DP FADC backwards and small hitbox make her better. I think Abel’s vulnerability to throw is just too great to put his defense on par with hers.
Another question though. Sako repeatedly went for walk back LP, SJ HP after NB in this set, and whiffed it every time. Was he trying for the crossup HP setup? That doesn’t work on Abel does it?
Point taken.
Akuma is an exception out of 38 other characters. With arguably the best vortex in the game, he’s going to have an answer for every wakeup in the game. No other character except maybe El Fuerte or Claw has an ambiguous mixup setup that includes a throw from the air. Also iirc Akuma vs Abel was like 10-0 in vanilla because of his broken Demon Flip throw + option select sweep, which could be repeated until death for most characters if they didn’t have meter.
Yes, shit happens when you guess wrong on wakeup. But look at those situations you presented. Empty jump grab is hardly ambiguous compared to many oki setups. Walk up neutral jump is essentially giving up pressure, and if you weren’t getting flustered on wakeup, that could potentially be a cr.HP into ultra, or a reaction EX FSky, etc. This is my point entirely. The opponent is purposely going out of his way (continually making reads) just to pressure you. The same cannot be said for DPs unless it’s the standard throw/frame trap/block mixup on the ground.
At the end of the day, it seems we’ll just agree to disagree. All I know is that I always have one hell of a field day when my friends try to pressure me on wakeup when I’m playing CViper, lol.
Not sure what that walk back st.LP , sj.HP setup is supposed to be. That’s why I took note of it, so maybe someone (not me!) with lots of free time can test it for us.
When I tested it, the walk back. st.lp, sj.hp setup stuffs reversal EX TT. Tried it with other grapplers. It stuffs Gief’s EX Powerbomb ,no armor absorb the j.hp, EX Greenhand whiffs. It trades with punches Lariat, but in Gief’s favor, he can juggle. Kicks Lariat gets stuffed. With T. Hawk, his EX Tomahawk whiffs. Pretty sure this is a safe jump for most grapplers. He needed to walk back a bit more to not make it whiff. Also, notice Sako did it whenever Abel had a meter.
Strong stuff at TFC Damascus!