London Thread 2012

[rice54635]

Psychology is bullshit and was created to control and manipulate the weak minded. Why don’t you guys start playing $50 FT10 MM’s and test this hypothesis of yours? I’m no “psychologist”, but I’m pretty sure if you lose, you’ll feel mental distress and a strong urge to break something.

@Joe: Once a month for “serious” play is the sort of mentality that’s kept London down for years. How about once a year for “casual” play instead? People don’t want to MM because they know that once they do this, shit gets real. Also, the primary goal shouldn’t be more players, the primary goal should be to make the current players as good as they can be. Casuals is bullshit.

How about Corry and I start coming to these weekly meetings and playing ppl for $50 in AE/3S/CVS2/HDR? I will do this. I’m pretty sure Corry will, too. Who’s up for this? Not only will I do this, but I will play you guys in Marvel for $50 as well. FT10. Maybe you guys will realize how pathetic casuals are once you feel the sting and pleasure of high stakes MM’s.

This seems like a solid way of building a scene however casuals still is a good thing for practice.

Also joe im still going to body you

Kappa

[Mihai]

This seems like a solid way of building a scene however casuals still is a good thing for practice.

Casuals is a good thing when everyone knows how to play a game…you’re confusing London with Toronto or Montreal.

[rice54635]

Casuals is a good thing when everyone knows how to play a game…you’re confusing London with Toronto or Montreal.

No, thats why you have casuals. To step up your game and practice

[Mihai]

No, thats why you have casuals. To step up your game and practice

You must be new…

[rice54635]

You must be new…

:<. Explain

[Mihai]

If casuals is for stepping your game up (which btw, I agree it is as long as the ppl playing are good), then how come the progress made in SF4 over a period of over a year was non-existant to laughable? Where was the stepping up? Wait lemme guess, everyone hated SF4, but now that Marvel3 is out, ppl are stepping it up hardcore…am I right?

Casuals doesn’t do anything for a scene as a whole because there is nothing on the line. Is Joe gonna keep getting better? OF COURSE. Joe is hungry as hell, and takes a bus to the US to compete. But to change an entire scene, you need to CREATE incentive for those who aren’t naturally as hungry. That’s why you NEED money to help a lazy scene like ours develop.

Want proof that people in this city don’t truly step anything up? Look at SF4 from Vanilla to AE2012. Who has stepped anything up? The skill order is identical as it was from the start.

Look at MVC3. What has changed? Joe > Alvin (when he doesn’t slack off) > Ryan/Drew/whoever. I bet you anything this will not change…pretty much EVER. If ppl were so good at stepping shit up, you’d see some overtake others, but this almost never happens in this city.

[rice54635]

Welp yeah, your right

[JED07]

Money might help some people but really the way I see it if you actually care enough about the game to be the best at it then you do just that regardless of money.

I agree and fall under this category.

No one plays fighting games for the money; you’d have to be fucking stupid to since there is more money in literally any other genre. Sometimes money has the opposite effect too, because if they didn’t care enough before they were spending money then spending money isn’t gonna magically make them care. We had 16-20 players regularly in Windsor for the first month or so of tournaments that we ran. As soon as most of them realized they were making a $5 donation to Joe every week they didn’t try to get better; they quit, and we were left with maybe 5 consistent players if we were lucky.

I kept making that $5 donation every time we had a tourney and you know I never really got that much better for it (but the money wasn’t an issue to me anyway). When I actually got dramatically better at SF was when I sat down and played with Darren and Janko and they went over in detail what I was doing wrong or what I needed to add and then I got thinking about it analytically (I have also since stagnated and am not at the level I once was in that game, so my current play does not make a good case for how much I improved back then).

Those who left are not competitive. Which either means they lack the fire to play competitively for that game or have plateaued and don’t know where to go from there to get better and just gave up. If the latter, they would need for somebody to help train them as you elaborated in your story.

Getting a veteran in a game to teach you the finer points is a rare and very helpful boost. Being a good player doesn’t necessarily mean that your patient enough to teach others your knowledge though. You have to want to help somebody grow. Sometimes you have to do it or the local scene will die.

I’ve been around tournaments in various communities long enough to see players who have gone to 30+ tournaments and still be bottom-of-the-barrel, so I know that the whole “playing in tournaments is the best way to improve” is bullshit. Tournament play exposes you to a lot more variety but it doesn’t magically make you better just by experiencing it; you have to actually think about it.

Maybe so, but tournament experience is still very valuable to some people who struggle in the tournament environment.

Your right that it really won’t teach you all that much about the games themselves that you couldn’t figure out thru other training except maybe new undiscovered strategies or setups or w/e, however you’ll level up your endurance and nerves.

Tournaments aren’t glorified casuals, even without the money, (money helps as it is part of the thrill for most and draws talent from far and wide), and depending on the size they can take a long time and towards the end you’ll be tired, nervous, maybe even have already exposed your best for all to see making progressing any further up the bracket harder.

This is why tournaments are the only way to tell who is the best, cuz if you manage to be king of the hill out of 50+ players after going through that shit, your skill has to be top notch.

Also Chris can you confirm something for me? I know that outside of sponsored majors the Japanese Smash community never plays for money (because it is actually considered illegal gambling there). I would assume it’s the same for the fighting game community but I’d rather have some confirmation. Consider that: the best fighting game community in the world likely doesn’t even play for money normally.

True however the Japanese have a strong arcade culture that permeates throughout their fighting game community.

In the arcades you line up, put your coin in, and somebody loses their coin and goes to the back of the line. It’s only a dime or yen or w/e they use however that shit adds up, and considering London wouldn’t even play for quarters back when I used to frequent your city, you must appreciate that aspect of Japan.

Of course population density helps them considerably, but look at some of the communities around here. Sauga is probably the best at Marvel 3 in the area and they have 4-5 players; same as us. They’re not hosting tournaments all the time - they’re playing at Rebelo’s house or RDK’s house; same as us. They just have more players that care more.

This is the core of London’s dilemma.

It’s not just that you don’t hold your own tournaments, (although a monthly ranbat for a few measly bucks wouldn’t kill you guys or hell do it for quarters), it’s that they have a larger pool of really good players that don’t need help by themselves. I don’t think that they’ve taken any apprentices in Sauga
recently.

In order for London to grow your going to either have to individually start giving a shit more, or your going to have to prostate yourselves before Mihai and/or Corry and petition for aid.

All that said I’m not opposed to tourneys or a league at all (I even offered to run a Marvel league a while back but interest in it quickly died). I’m just trying to keep everyone’s eyes open to what needs to be considered in improving the scene.

Fair enough, and you make some good points.

Just because some ppl believe this doesn’t mean it’s true. Why do virtually ALL tournaments give money to the winners? Why are top players attracted by tourneys with big payouts? Why do ppl money match and not HONOR match? Reason is simple: money talks. Money brings out the best and worst (a good thing for competition) in ppl when it comes to competition. Money doesn’t automatically make you get better, but money makes you get better if you are a competitive person. Money also has the secondary purpose of weeding out scrubs that like to hide behind casuals.

Bottom line is that it’s not cheap to travel to majors, it takes $$$, whether your a pro gamer or not.

Nobody rationalizes their desire to compete by saying “Yeah, I’m gonna make a living off those hundreds of dollars I get for placing top3 in a major every couple of months”, but then again, nobody grows up thinking “damn, I wanna be a lawyer so I can make tons of cash!” They wanna be a fireman or an astronaut. But when they GROW UP, they realize that cash is king, and that if they wanna have a good life, they better choose a profession wisely. Same thing with FG players. At the start, you’re naive and think “Man, I love this game, it’s so much fun.” But as you get better, and assuming you’re not a soulless scrub, you have that competition calling out to you. And what’s the best way to satisfy the competition itch? Tourneys and money matches. Casuals don’t cut it man. There’s a REASON so many top players came from competitive environments such as arcades and high level areas with regular tourneys.

Yeah this is what I’m talking about, competition is thrilling and winning a few bucks is icing on the cake.

Money has a negative effect on SCRUBS. I would rather have 5 good players that play for money than 20 scrubs that play for “fun” (losing is always FUN and INFORMATIVE when you don’t put anything on the line. This is the call of the scrub)

The reason you never got better is because the money was worthless to you. I’ll take that. Pay me $5 and we can play MM’s all night if the money doesn’t matter. But I guarantee that after you pay me 50+ dollars, you WILL start hurting. And guess what will happen? You will either A) GET BETTER or B) QUIT. This is the beauty of money’s effect on performance. In the real world, money screws the world up just as much as it makes things better, but in SF, money’s impact is purely positive.

You have to care enough about the game to shake off the effects of potentially losing cash.

You also have to be aware of the potential enjoyment participating in a competitive environment brings. Sadly most of the uninitiated fighting game novices are oblivious to this and just see this as a scam so that the top players make money.

Playing in tourneys IS THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE. But guess what it requires? The desire to become better and better. People who have gone to 30+ tourneys and have never improved are called POT MONSTERS. Some ppl go to tourneys to be part of the group. These are not the people that make SF the greatest competitive game ever made. These ppl are cheerleaders and groupies. They are a cancer to the FG community.

Sauga have very rich tournament/MM history. They are NOT “hidden gems”. Also, the Japanese love money as much as we do. Like you said though, playing for money is illegal there I think. But don’t forget that the reason Japanese players are so good is not cause of some bullshit Samurai code of ethics. It’s because they GREW UP IN THE ARCADES, where you have to pay to play, and if you refuse to get better, you either go broke or quit.

What improves a scene is competition. SF has gone from hardcore competition to laid back Carebear sessions where scrubs can feel good cause they’re “part of the scene”. I’ve been around since 2001, and honestly, I can now say that, despite being “enemies” at the time, I really miss Nassim (arcticninja) because he actually organized tournaments, traveled often to tourneys (including US majors), and played to win all the time. I couldn’t appreciate these things when I was just 18, but I do now. And keep in mind that during these years, we only had a few competent players, but these guys were legit. Quality over quantity. Now we have several good players, but they’re being stifled by a shitty casual atmosphere, and no, they probably won’t talk shit against our scene cause they’re generally nice guys, but they know I’m right.

Bottom line for me is this: money makes a scene better. If this wasn’t the case, you’d see EVO2K12 giving away gold stars to its champions.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OnDdOP0C8lk/TmVJg_fyftI/AAAAAAAADEQ/75baM7PprIc/s1600/Care-Bears-bh13.jpg

Tournaments only really help you after you’ve learned the basics of the game and other fundamentals. Which means you have to care enough or have somebody help you along the way. Otherwise tourneys are useless and you will be a Pot Monster, Stream Monster, groupie, cheerleader, journlolist bum etc forever.

I can agree with a lot of that. I still adamantly maintain my stance that tourneys are not necessarily the best way to improve. I’m speaking from experience here, not just observation. I was one of those bottom-of-the-barrel tournament players. I went to Smash tourneys for 2 years without ever making a dent in the standings. It’s not that I didn’t want to win either…some history (warning: incoming life story):

I’ve wanted to be a top competitive gamer since as long as I knew video games were a thing. Competitive gaming didn’t even really exist yet but when I first picked up a video game at 5 years old (20 years ago) I knew I wanted to the best at it. Of course as a kid in a small town the only competition were neighbourhood friends and a sibling, and I was always solidly at the top of that (weren’t we all). When Smash 64 and Starcraft were released I quickly realized those were “my” games, but competitive Smash was a completely asinine idea even to me; I ignored the idea so much that I didn’t even know competitive Smash existed until 2006. At the time I was playing other games like WoW, DotA/WC3, and Unreal so I kept occupied with those. Then when Brawl was announced I realized “this is my chance to accomplish what I have dreamed of for my entire life”. Why does all this matter though?

It matters because I obviously had the motivation. I spent every spare minute before that game released studying strategy and videos from Melee, even practicing Melee when I could just to prepare for Brawl. When it released I continued that trend spending every spare minute at home playing it, inviting all of the best players I knew whenever I could to practice with me. I was going to be the best at that game…then I went to some tournaments. I got bodied (as we all do), but that didn’t hinder my determination at all. I spent more time analyzing the game, practicing, thinking about my own mistakes…most of my idle thoughts were actually just playing out matches in my head. I kept going back to tournaments with increased resolve every time…for about 2 years, but still nothing. (And for what it’s worth the money actually mattered here; every tournament was 3 hours worth of gas each way that I was fronting almost entirely by myself and this is while I was paying my own way through college).

Along the way I met Swordgard, one of Mtl’s best players. He noticed the deviance between the effort I put in and the results I got and very graciously offered to train me. We played a lot online but the vast majority of what I took from the training was verbal (or typed) advice. I also met Overswarm (formerly the Midwest’s #1 player) online while playing League of Legends. He was confused by how good I was at LoL (very good actually since I had played DotA for years) while producing no results in Brawl. He offered his flavour of advice by likening a lot of Smash / fighting game strategy to things that I did well in LoL. Suddenly at the next tournament I went to I was beating players I previously had no business even taking a game from and I heard some form of “you got a lot better” from everyone I played. This was not a coincidence (and nor is it a coincidence that this almost identically mirrors how Darren and Janko helped me improve in SF).

Of course you could argue that it was because I went to tournaments that all this happened. I never would have met either of these people if not for that, but I’m saying no matter how many tournaments you play in it’s not enough on its own to just go 0-2, think about why you lost, maybe play some casuals, and then leave - especially if you missed a key element of the game strategy altogether from the beginning.

Yeah this is a great example of what I’ve always known deep down. Very few of the top players just sprang into being outta the ground without already knowing previous veterans and playing with them.

I’m a firm believer that improvement falls solely on the individual. If you’re the type that needs to be spoon fed, or have his hand held, or be told what you’re doing wrong, then your “aids” are merely delaying the inevitable, which is your ultimate failure. Btw, I’m not shitting on your story. In fact, I like your honesty and the fact that you wear your heart on your sleeve. But SF is not a fairy tale. It’s a jungle. And only the strong survive. If you can’t figure out a way to win by yourself, then guess what? You’re prolly never gonna get good. My favorite example is Corry, cause it’s the best example I know. From the start, I saw something in Corry that the rest of the scrubs didn’t possess. He had a DESIRE TO WIN. His desire to win was made manifest by a great ability to block and die in the corner. I would throw his ass all day, but he blocked. He didn’t mash. I saw something special in him because of this. We spent hours and hours talking on park benches and playing non-stop at Wizards and driving through the shittiest snow storms to play 3S and CVS1 at Ace at midnight. But I did not give him the qualities that make a good SF player. I didn’t give him his intelligence or self-control. I didn’t make him think of SF strategies during class. I didn’t force him to come to the arcade. He did all these things himself. He wanted to win.

The moral of the story is this: the best players want to WIN. Playing for money makes you want to win the MOST. Playing for money cultivates the best players because the ones that play for money possess the most important qualities that make a winner, and these qualities are amplified by the fear of LOSING money at lower levels and the desire to make money at the higher levels (where thousands of dollars are on the line).

Your not gonna like what I’m about to say Mihai, but it’s the truth.

Your both right to an extent as I’ve pointed out.

However we both know the London scene will never magically change on it’s own. It’s been quite a few months now and they’ve demonstrated how far they are willing to go on their own.

That means that either you or Corry or both are going to have to step up and play some serious first to one hundreds with them while pointing out their mistakes. Remember when you berated Chris when he was playing with me and how you totally pointed out that I was just timing my tech throw at exactly the same time and when you told Chris to mix up the timing he got pissed off but started doing it and it worked like a charm? That’s the ticket right there.

Yes it is spoon feeding them for free, but barring that I don’t see London turning over a new leaf on it’s own.

Tournaments alone won’t do it, that’s just the end game stuff.

Now as for the rest of you, your going to have to take the berating and learn. It won’t be pleasant but you will get better much faster.

Otherwise you’ll do what I did and seek out different opponents thru other methods.

Mine was playing ST on ggpo. Boy did that help a lot against the Dogberry and Pchronic. They’re still by and far superior players to me for various reasons which I won’t get into but it sure helped with my matchup knowledge as well as everything else. The only thing that that kind of training doesn’t help with is tournaments. I have little experience in that regard and I don’t do well.

Eventually I stopped playing online and sf for a year and a half because online sucks in north america and it’s not enough to save you against the pros in majors.

Offline grinding is a must.

Back when I started focusing on ST, those first to 50s and such against Dogberry and Pchronic were fun as well as good training. Ah the Brettbunker sessions… such good memories.

This is the key gentlemen, not just money and tourneys but time and offline grinding sessions are what is needed. Playing casuals are not a bad thing, but once a week doesn’t cut it. SF is a memory and reaction game and in order to improve both you must play, and play a damn lot. That’s what you should take from the pros and this discussion. The best players play for many hours a week. This is why I disappeared over a year ago. I knew that because of logistical reasons ST wasn’t going to get more than one casual every 1 1/2 months. That and the shitty online told me to concentrate on other things.

[AvariceX]

Damn that was a pretty awesome post (snip those quotes though ><).

Honestly I think we’re blurring the line a bit between London SF and London Marvel. There are different core players in each and they’ve been successful in their own right. Corry and Monney qualified for the SF invitational and Joe and Alvin did the same for Marvel. Joe also took down Dieminion and Damien at WB. There hasn’t even been much for me to go to recently but at my last tourney I took top 16 out of a large playing field (60+ I think) and my loss in winners was to 1st place and my loss in losers was the flukest of flukes; I had literally already won the game but Jing’s sacrifice of a thousand virgins to the Skrull God saved his ass. Jing went on to place 5th in that tourney so I think I did pretty good all things considered.

On that note Sauga actually did take up an apprentice recently: Chokehold came out of nowhere and won that underdogs tourney after training with RDK and Rebelo.

All I’m saying is sure our SF players other than Corry and Monney (and Mihai when he’s around) suck, but how many of them are actually SF players? I’m a Marvel player and so is Joe. The others I’m not sure where their focus lies but Drew and Alvin certainly aren’t bad at Marvel. On the other side of the coin we could say our SF players like Corry or Monney or Mihai suck at Marvel but that wouldn’t really mean anything (and I’m not saying any of you do; I’ve never played any of you to know). Maybe the SF side looks a little bleaker but I know for sure on the Marvel side we have made significant strides over the last year.

Of course you can’t ever be happy with where you’re at, but (on the Marvel side at least) I wouldn’t say the sky is falling just yet.

[Mihai]

Remember when you berated Chris when he was playing with me and how you totally pointed out that I was just timing my tech throw at exactly the same time and when you told Chris to mix up the timing he got pissed off but started doing it and it worked like a charm? That’s the ticket right there.

This is one of my favorite memories. It was one of the only times I’ve ever seen Chris get mad, and it was amazing to witness cause I could feel his anger. Oh how I wish all sessions could be like this lol

Anyway, I read your post, I agree, it feels like history is repeating itself. What makes me mad is not that London isn’t better cause we got some good players that can beat top players…something that we never had in the past. What makes me mad is that we could be getting better far faster if we had a more competitive environment…and I feel that casuals at Ben’s place once a week is weak sauce.

PS. I do suck at Marvel Ryan, but if I had someone to play more often, I could beat you guys no problem. How do I know this? Because when I play Alvin and Drew in AE, their mind games are nothing to me, and I can see pretty much see everything coming. Yet in Marvel, I get raped. But not cause I don’t “get” Marvel, it’s cause I barely play the game and so don’t know shit about it, and most of the mixups are totally foreign to me, and so I can’t even begin to anticipate what’s coming. Hell, at first when I started playing Alvin, my brain/finger connection wasn’t even there, I felt helpless. If I did play the game more often, which I plan to do, I will beat you guys. That’s not shit talk or exaggeration, it’s a fact.

[cambodianuppercut]

First time I went to bens I asked about tourneys for money I’m a gambler lose or win I don’t really care to me its all for fun for 5 10 dollars that’s what we did in Windsor I’m down for tournaments because with money involved you will step up your brain will work better and create chess moves you have never thought of or was unable to when playing casuals

[alvin1887]

Dammit Alvin why you gotta science this all up on us?

NERD

I’M SORRY THAT I LIKE TO USE WHAT I’M PAYING TO LEARN lol. not my hypothesis either, and it has been tested, wrote a critical paper on it, scored an A from a very tough marker without even submitting a earlier draft for him to edit. not saying that extrinsic motivation has purely negative results. i’m actually really interested in this and ima look at some potentially better ways to use money to improve our scene.

[AvariceX]

I’M SORRY THAT I LIKE TO USE WHAT I’M PAYING TO LEARN lol.

I thought you were a music student o_O

Although actually I’ve heard about the same studies you mentioned almost verbatim when I took a psychology elective in college.

[alvin1887]

I thought you were a music student o_O

Although actually I’ve heard about the same studies you mentioned almost verbatim when I took a psychology elective in college.

music EDUCATION student. social sci is also my 2nd teachable, so sorta a minor of mine. psych’s where my interest lies. mihai when you free? we should play more. i miss you. i think about you when i play at night.

[Mihai]

music EDUCATION student. social sci is also my 2nd teachable, so sorta a minor of mine. psych’s where my interest lies. mihai when you free? we should play more. i miss you. i think about you when i play at night.

I think about you too…

I also enjoy psychology, but a lot of it is bullshit. It’s run by an elite group who are merely working for their puppet masters whose interest is the total control of humanity. I am free Friday at 3. Let’s meet up. I want to play you for many hours in Marvel. I will assimilate you.

PS. Corry, I’ll PM you this weekend, and I’ll come over and we can play AE for like 5 hours straight.
PPS. Fear of violence breeds discipline in a child. Fear of being free and losing Wendy’s money breeds SF skill.

[Turbo2Tone]

Damn that memory Mihai, got me all mad again, I`m gonna go beat up some people in the arcade today thanks to that memory hahaha.

Also Ryan, Ill try and find that info for you on gambling but I haven't seen any since I have been here, but like pachinko, there is probably some back door dealing going on. Also you don't need gambling here since every match you play in the arcade is a MM for ¥50 to¥ 100 in front of other SF fans or any other game for that matter. You go to gamespot versus or club Sega un Akihabara or any solid based arcade here, and you are basically put on the spot for money to perform your best in front of other excellent Japanese players. You feel the pressure every match especially since you are putting in a dollar every time you play. You believe me you wanna win and stay on. I still think the best all around places for training is arcades, its all day money matches with casual and informative discussion on how to get better. But in Japan, everyone is so dedicated day in and day out. And SF isnt even big in Japan. Of all the arcade games that you go to arcade to see, SF is probably least played. Tekken is played more, the fruity anime games like blazblue, Aqua Plaza and Melty Blood are played a hell of a lot more than SF, and the most popular game by far over any game Ive seen in Japan are those Gundam games in the 3D environments. You go to any arcade in Japan and they may or may not have a SF set up, but they all have that gun dam set up with a local competitive scene that would shame Londons scene all dumping money into these machines and analyzing each match to get better. Its crazy to see here.

[AvariceX]

Gundam VS is picking up steam even in North America from what I’ve seen. I can’t complain since I always wanted to see Armored Core get big and that’s the closest thing.

Those fruity anime games are played over SF because they are better games and should be (except maybe Aqua; I don’t know anything about that game…but I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt anyway).

[alvin1887]

I think about you too…

I also enjoy psychology, but a lot of it is bullshit. It’s run by an elite group who are merely working for their puppet masters whose interest is the total control of humanity. I am free Friday at 3. Let’s meet up. I want to play you for many hours in Marvel. I will assimilate you.

friday sounds good

[Turbo2Tone]

They are not better games, they are played over SF because they appeal to younger crowds who don`t know SF games as well. 3rd Strike is infinitely better than anyone of those games you could throw at. Keeping in mind, the people I see playing those anime games are teens to 25 at oldest. People playing SF here are almost all 22-45 in ages, all different SF. It is based on age demographics and what appeals to kids these days. Plus SF games are too difficult for the whinny kids of today.

[Mihai]

Alvin, I will call you after work. Corry, if you’re reading this, can you come as well?

@Ryan: I seriously can’t believe you just said anime games are better than SF. In today’s society, the more popular something is, the shittier it is (usually).