So you have also figured out what it’ll take to get people to play competitively. Money that is.
I may try the same thing but in much larger amounts once my apprenticeship picks up for ST.
- SFxT looks really cool to me, easy on the outside, deep on the inside. You can do chain combos, or do links for 20% more damage. Akuma chain into s.rh into combo->tatsu->sweep? I’m in, but totally understand if people want to stick to their games. Hope Alvin gets good at SCV!
- We’ll try Huron again, and I can pay for Ben’s parking and I’ll probably take ride with Mihai (if he exists in person). I was free around 8 last time we checked in September, so =/
- I think tournaments are worth trying to change it up. I enjoy casuals, and I think most meetings will remain that way. But if two weeks in a month we do two tournies for two games, that’s an improvement to measure ourselves and add that incentive.
- As for new day, weekend in general works best, but I work at random times. If we pick a day (can’t be Wed), I’ll work the rest of my schedule to make it.
- I think we could beat anyone except Sauga/Toronto, and we can cheese out plenty of wins with Wesker and Thor. Bottom line is we need to travel more to K/W casuals to play their top 2-3 marvel guys and to tournaments in general - it’s a different world than our casuals.
[media=youtube]La6d4ahWXJ0[/media]
Yeah I exist. I used to come out pretty much every week back in the day, but the reason I don’t give a shit anymore is cause ppl don’t wanna play for money and the atmosphere is too laid back. To be totally frank, I think casuals are garbage and a waste of time. If we lived in Cali and casuals meant playing top players, then yeah casuals would be amazing, but for a shitty scene like ours, we need money to make things worthwhile. To this day I’m still baffled how some ppl don’t wanna pay $5 a week for games they obv invest so much time in. I know that none of you are on welfare, so don’t gimme that I’m poor excuse. Anyway, whatever. More and more I’m seeing why Corry plays on XBL, I mean, if we’re gonna be casual London all the way, what’s the point in even coming out, especially for SF players. You can get infinitely better comp on XBL…shit, even on PSN.
played some long ezio mirror sets with oofmatic over reading week at his place. he says mine is better than his :D. he just knows other matchups better than i do since i’m just getting back into the SC competitive scene. hearing that from one of north america’s top SC players is pretty encouraging.
Good then you can help grind those of us willing to play into better shape to make it more interesting for you…and us.
ben, any interest in picking up natsu? been learning her on the side lately so i think i could teach her basics fairly well. cheap, quick, 75% health meterless wall combos.
I worked with her a bit, and she used to be who I used in SE/SC2. Once you told me about <=A+B, ~, =>B+G I was working on that. But, like with any chars I know, I need to get better mix ups going.
get these going:
6A+B PO A:6 FCA+B 1A
CH 6A+B PO A:6 3KKK (optional FC [full crouch] A+B) 1A (or 44KK)
pretty standard bnb for her. 6A+B is 16 frames, good punish move that u can get full combos off of.
I approve of some sort of tournament or league even.
Ppl need to start spending cause London SF scene is in a major economic crisis and Obama ain’t gonna bail us out.
http://success.org/success/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bling.jpg
Something to think about: Chris spent more than $5 on gas picking many of you up on a weekly basis for years. He cared about the scene enough to make sacrifices.
I’m a little apprehensive to open this can of worms, but…
Money might help some people but really the way I see it if you actually care enough about the game to be the best at it then you do just that regardless of money. No one plays fighting games for the money; you’d have to be fucking stupid to since there is more money in literally any other genre. Sometimes money has the opposite effect too, because if they didn’t care enough before they were spending money then spending money isn’t gonna magically make them care. We had 16-20 players regularly in Windsor for the first month or so of tournaments that we ran. As soon as most of them realized they were making a $5 donation to Joe every week they didn’t try to get better; they quit, and we were left with maybe 5 consistent players if we were lucky.
I kept making that $5 donation every time we had a tourney and you know I never really got that much better for it (but the money wasn’t an issue to me anyway). When I actually got dramatically better at SF was when I sat down and played with Darren and Janko and they went over in detail what I was doing wrong or what I needed to add and then I got thinking about it analytically (I have also since stagnated and am not at the level I once was in that game, so my current play does not make a good case for how much I improved back then). I’ve been around tournaments in various communities long enough to see players who have gone to 30+ tournaments and still be bottom-of-the-barrel, so I know that the whole “playing in tournaments is the best way to improve” is bullshit. Tournament play exposes you to a lot more variety but it doesn’t magically make you better just by experiencing it; you have to actually think about it.
Also Chris can you confirm something for me? I know that outside of sponsored majors the Japanese Smash community never plays for money (because it is actually considered illegal gambling there). I would assume it’s the same for the fighting game community but I’d rather have some confirmation. Consider that: the best fighting game community in the world likely doesn’t even play for money normally. Of course population density helps them considerably, but look at some of the communities around here. Sauga is probably the best at Marvel 3 in the area and they have 4-5 players; same as us. They’re not hosting tournaments all the time - they’re playing at Rebelo’s house or RDK’s house; same as us. They just have more players that care more.
All that said I’m not opposed to tourneys or a league at all (I even offered to run a Marvel league a while back but interest in it quickly died). I’m just trying to keep everyone’s eyes open to what needs to be considered in improving the scene.
Just because some ppl believe this doesn’t mean it’s true. Why do virtually ALL tournaments give money to the winners? Why are top players attracted by tourneys with big payouts? Why do ppl money match and not HONOR match? Reason is simple: money talks. Money brings out the best and worst (a good thing for competition) in ppl when it comes to competition. Money doesn’t automatically make you get better, but money makes you get better if you are a competitive person. Money also has the secondary purpose of weeding out scrubs that like to hide behind casuals.
Nobody rationalizes their desire to compete by saying “Yeah, I’m gonna make a living off those hundreds of dollars I get for placing top3 in a major every couple of months”, but then again, nobody grows up thinking “damn, I wanna be a lawyer so I can make tons of cash!” They wanna be a fireman or an astronaut. But when they GROW UP, they realize that cash is king, and that if they wanna have a good life, they better choose a profession wisely. Same thing with FG players. At the start, you’re naive and think “Man, I love this game, it’s so much fun.” But as you get better, and assuming you’re not a soulless scrub, you have that competition calling out to you. And what’s the best way to satisfy the competition itch? Tourneys and money matches. Casuals don’t cut it man. There’s a REASON so many top players came from competitive environments such as arcades and high level areas with regular tourneys.
Money has a negative effect on SCRUBS. I would rather have 5 good players that play for money than 20 scrubs that play for “fun” (losing is always FUN and INFORMATIVE when you don’t put anything on the line. This is the call of the scrub)
The reason you never got better is because the money was worthless to you. I’ll take that. Pay me $5 and we can play MM’s all night if the money doesn’t matter. But I guarantee that after you pay me 50+ dollars, you WILL start hurting. And guess what will happen? You will either A) GET BETTER or B) QUIT. This is the beauty of money’s effect on performance. In the real world, money screws the world up just as much as it makes things better, but in SF, money’s impact is purely positive.
Playing in tourneys IS THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE. But guess what it requires? The desire to become better and better. People who have gone to 30+ tourneys and have never improved are called POT MONSTERS. Some ppl go to tourneys to be part of the group. These are not the people that make SF the greatest competitive game ever made. These ppl are cheerleaders and groupies. They are a cancer to the FG community.
Sauga have very rich tournament/MM history. They are NOT “hidden gems”. Also, the Japanese love money as much as we do. Like you said though, playing for money is illegal there I think. But don’t forget that the reason Japanese players are so good is not cause of some bullshit Samurai code of ethics. It’s because they GREW UP IN THE ARCADES, where you have to pay to play, and if you refuse to get better, you either go broke or quit.
What improves a scene is competition. SF has gone from hardcore competition to laid back Carebear sessions where scrubs can feel good cause they’re “part of the scene”. I’ve been around since 2001, and honestly, I can now say that, despite being “enemies” at the time, I really miss Nassim (arcticninja) because he actually organized tournaments, traveled often to tourneys (including US majors), and played to win all the time. I couldn’t appreciate these things when I was just 18, but I do now. And keep in mind that during these years, we only had a few competent players, but these guys were legit. Quality over quantity. Now we have several good players, but they’re being stifled by a shitty casual atmosphere, and no, they probably won’t talk shit against our scene cause they’re generally nice guys, but they know I’m right.
Bottom line for me is this: money makes a scene better. If this wasn’t the case, you’d see EVO2K12 giving away gold stars to its champions.
I can agree with a lot of that. I still adamantly maintain my stance that tourneys are not necessarily the best way to improve. I’m speaking from experience here, not just observation. I was one of those bottom-of-the-barrel tournament players. I went to Smash tourneys for 2 years without ever making a dent in the standings. It’s not that I didn’t want to win either…some history (warning: incoming life story):
I’ve wanted to be a top competitive gamer since as long as I knew video games were a thing. Competitive gaming didn’t even really exist yet but when I first picked up a video game at 5 years old (20 years ago) I knew I wanted to the best at it. Of course as a kid in a small town the only competition were neighbourhood friends and a sibling, and I was always solidly at the top of that (weren’t we all). When Smash 64 and Starcraft were released I quickly realized those were “my” games, but competitive Smash was a completely asinine idea even to me; I ignored the idea so much that I didn’t even know competitive Smash existed until 2006. At the time I was playing other games like WoW, DotA/WC3, and Unreal so I kept occupied with those. Then when Brawl was announced I realized “this is my chance to accomplish what I have dreamed of for my entire life”. Why does all this matter though?
It matters because I obviously had the motivation. I spent every spare minute before that game released studying strategy and videos from Melee, even practicing Melee when I could just to prepare for Brawl. When it released I continued that trend spending every spare minute at home playing it, inviting all of the best players I knew whenever I could to practice with me. I was going to be the best at that game…then I went to some tournaments. I got bodied (as we all do), but that didn’t hinder my determination at all. I spent more time analyzing the game, practicing, thinking about my own mistakes…most of my idle thoughts were actually just playing out matches in my head. I kept going back to tournaments with increased resolve every time…for about 2 years, but still nothing. (And for what it’s worth the money actually mattered here; every tournament was 3 hours worth of gas each way that I was fronting almost entirely by myself and this is while I was paying my own way through college).
Along the way I met Swordgard, one of Mtl’s best players. He noticed the deviance between the effort I put in and the results I got and very graciously offered to train me. We played a lot online but the vast majority of what I took from the training was verbal (or typed) advice. I also met Overswarm (formerly the Midwest’s #1 player) online while playing League of Legends. He was confused by how good I was at LoL (very good actually since I had played DotA for years) while producing no results in Brawl. He offered his flavour of advice by likening a lot of Smash / fighting game strategy to things that I did well in LoL. Suddenly at the next tournament I went to I was beating players I previously had no business even taking a game from and I heard some form of “you got a lot better” from everyone I played. This was not a coincidence (and nor is it a coincidence that this almost identically mirrors how Darren and Janko helped me improve in SF).
Of course you could argue that it was because I went to tournaments that all this happened. I never would have met either of these people if not for that, but I’m saying no matter how many tournaments you play in it’s not enough on its own to just go 0-2, think about why you lost, maybe play some casuals, and then leave - especially if you missed a key element of the game strategy altogether from the beginning.
I’m a firm believer that improvement falls solely on the individual. If you’re the type that needs to be spoon fed, or have his hand held, or be told what you’re doing wrong, then your “aids” are merely delaying the inevitable, which is your ultimate failure. Btw, I’m not shitting on your story. In fact, I like your honesty and the fact that you wear your heart on your sleeve. But SF is not a fairy tale. It’s a jungle. And only the strong survive. If you can’t figure out a way to win by yourself, then guess what? You’re prolly never gonna get good. My favorite example is Corry, cause it’s the best example I know. From the start, I saw something in Corry that the rest of the scrubs didn’t possess. He had a DESIRE TO WIN. His desire to win was made manifest by a great ability to block and die in the corner. I would throw his ass all day, but he blocked. He didn’t mash. I saw something special in him because of this. We spent hours and hours talking on park benches and playing non-stop at Wizards and driving through the shittiest snow storms to play 3S and CVS1 at Ace at midnight. But I did not give him the qualities that make a good SF player. I didn’t give him his intelligence or self-control. I didn’t make him think of SF strategies during class. I didn’t force him to come to the arcade. He did all these things himself. He wanted to win.
The moral of the story is this: the best players want to WIN. Playing for money makes you want to win the MOST. Playing for money cultivates the best players because the ones that play for money possess the most important qualities that make a winner, and these qualities are amplified by the fear of LOSING money at lower levels and the desire to make money at the higher levels (where thousands of dollars are on the line).
actually there are psych studies that proves extrinsic motivators weaken intrinsic motivation, and evidence that intrinsic motivation works far better than extrinsic motivation for learning a behaviour, which in this case, is improving in fighting games.
Dammit Alvin why you gotta science this all up on us?
NERD
Not sure if SF could do it, but I’d like to see Alvin/Drew/Ryan Money Match. You all seem pretty equal, and I know you guys wouldn’t want to lose to Drew, so take his money! Hell, I’ll play 2:1 odds or secondary teams for money too.
Like a said, once a month for any “serious” play, and the rest should stay casual like it is now. Our main goal is more players, so MM or sets on youtube and weekly meetings are all that are necessary - next is a bit more traveling. There’s no doubt we’re all improving at Marvel, but recreating a tournament atmosphere to get some “real” experience in is actually important. When one is a touch away from winning a tournie or money match, you don’t do a BNB, its ends up being something ugly like a basic air combo into super. That’s the kind of practice you can’t really get in casuals, but it’s the most “practical” combo, rather than easy fly or wallbounce combos.
RDK/Rebelo’s house is full of money matches. They run it back three times to get their money back and get real salty. If I ever lost money to any of you, believe me you would not win again. I think MM are at least worth a try, even just for youtube views!
Thanks for reminding me that I actually lost a tournament because I dropped the simplest, ugliest, basicest (yes, basicest) combo ever seen.
However…
I’m 1-0 against you in tournament; hold dat!
Also:
DansGame
Psychology is bullshit and was created to control and manipulate the weak minded. Why don’t you guys start playing $50 FT10 MM’s and test this hypothesis of yours? I’m no “psychologist”, but I’m pretty sure if you lose, you’ll feel mental distress and a strong urge to break something.
@Joe: Once a month for “serious” play is the sort of mentality that’s kept London down for years. How about once a year for “casual” play instead? People don’t want to MM because they know that once they do this, shit gets real. Also, the primary goal shouldn’t be more players, the primary goal should be to make the current players as good as they can be. Casuals is bullshit.
How about Corry and I start coming to these weekly meetings and playing ppl for $50 in AE/3S/CVS2/HDR? I will do this. I’m pretty sure Corry will, too. Who’s up for this? Not only will I do this, but I will play you guys in Marvel for $50 as well. FT10. Maybe you guys will realize how pathetic casuals are once you feel the sting and pleasure of high stakes MM’s.
Of course, this will not happen or if it does happen, it will be between the same ppl week after week. People don’t even want to pay $5 a week…wtf