I, personally, prefer to play with x-23, but wolverine is really more powerfull because of his brainless dive kick super hit confirm, instant overhead confirm, air supers, self relaunchs, bigger life and other little things, so… why do i dont play with him ? because i personally dont like brainless chars, lol.
x-23 may be assist-dependent, less life, but she is IMO faster than wolverine, way more underestimated, and the people still dont know exactly the match up.
wolverine ONLY does dive kick spam or beserker slash + hyper, x-23 is really unpredictable, besides the Dirty Nap mix up and the fact that she have 2 hypers lvl 1 with I-frames, wolve doesnt.
Sorry Trauma, I’m PS3 only. (That’s aside from the fact that trying to do any high level X-23 stuff online is enough to make you put holes in walls…) I would love to have a chance to have a big ass X-23 round table casual session with our forum guys one day tho. In any case, my match play is waaay below my labwork unfortunately, I’m not garbage or anything, but I’m def. not the scariest tourney player out here by any means.
As much as I hate it…Marvel IS a game where you should only be resetting if you have to (off of a throw) and should be going for a kill otherwise. I love being tricky, but there’s just too much bs in this game to not 100% someone if you get the touch first, because it’s going to happen to you when the tables turn.
What have you guys been doing on the Spencer and taskmaster matchup with X-23? Most of my normal local competition play them and spencer+assist pressure is freaking annoying (j. hori zipline + tasky arrows into overhead/crossup, then endless blockstrings ending in command grabs into death) and Taskmaster can make almost any blockstring safe with sting master and has the normals to stuff most of X-23’s normal approach methods.
IMO, she can play a wolvie style game with Cart because it is so wonderfully fast and locks down for so long but you HAVE to play someone like nova 2nd to cover the leveling problem. I don’t feel like X-23 can afford to risk a broken TAC against certain matchups and stupid shit happens way too often to count on her not dying.
X23/Dorm/Strange has really nice overall synergy (only downside being a lousy Strange>X23 DHC.) I need to steal some Trauma Dark Hole tech since I’m so used to cart at this point I’m having a hard time transitioning.
Anyone know off-hand if can dorm can set up forced ground techs (2nd dark matter > knockdown > assist+teleport>dash H) then do a dante style hi/low/left/right reset with X23?
I would easily trade more mobility options than health. This game has so much ToD stuff and it’s only going to get to the point that no matter how much health a character has he/she will die from simple hit confirms. On approach, Wolverine does have the better tools for opening people up (even with the nerfs), but I feel like in terms of utility X23 is just as effective. Beginners can’t simply pick up Ultimate Wolverine and dominate with him, they actually have to put in the work now and that’s why a lot of Wolverine’s aren’t seen as much anymore outside notable names. I think that’s what bothered a lot of people that were trying to learn X23 in vanilla, so I’m glad Wolverine isn’t as scrub friendly.
Besides that, I could probably watch good X23 gameplay all day. I can’t watch Wolverine gameplay for more than 5 mins, frankly.
@Trauma and everyone else out here on XBL. My friend has started doing a streamed lobby (archived and commentated) every tuesday night starting ~8pm CST. Barring some big issue I should almost always be there so you guys should show up and show the other guys around here what all we can do.
Just add theTylerGilmore on XBL (same for Twitch.TV) and you should be able to join the lobby once it starts!
Here’s the archive from this past tuesday. http://www.twitch.tv/thetylergilmore/b/320503780 I don’t play online so I was doing a pretty lousy job trying to get used to the lag and my Dorm is a freaking joke atm but I still came out about even on wins in the long run (maybe a few more losses, but I felt pretty good by the end of the night.) We all just switch out so if it’s X-23/Dorm/Strange from PotatoSalad that was me but I hop off and commentate for a little bit. Nothing amazing, I don’t think I even attempted a jump loop and only started hitting my dorm relaunch after a decent chunk of matches so I wouldn’t watch it expecting too much but I was getting more accustomed to comboing online and next week I plan to go for much more technical play. Either way, I really hope to see a few of you guys over there.
I told Tyler I’d try to provide an X23-palooza next week. Make me proud, gents!
For anyone interested: On the stream archive, I have the matches at the beginning, I commentate for a good chunk (I’m the monotone-ish guy on the mic…need to work on that, lol), then I hop back on for a few at 2:10:00
Could someone help me out with something? I know that x23 has a good mixup / reset game, but I kinda need a little guidance I guess. I’m getting by with simple call assist > MF behind them > combo stuff, but let’s say they’re in the corner and just downbacking / push blocking…what can I do to open them up besides decapitating slice ? Should I just be using assist calls and mfc’s to keep pressure applied ? Is there anything else I can do ? Could someone give me a general x23 pressure/ mixup string ? It would be really helpful. Thanks a ton guys. The people on this board are all so chill, I wish the rest of srk would look at us as an example -_- anyways, just wanted to give a shutout to y’all for being accepting of new x23 players.
The ever universal creed of FGs. Hi/Low/Throw. (I agree with Jaytoo, so his is the TL;DR version, this is more of an elaboration than anything.)
The throw part is a bit situational for X23 since you have to have the right assist backing her up to get a followup but in the corner it’s a pretty large segment of her good assists that will let you combo.
The main thing In corner situations the trick is to make sure you’re buffering the assist call into the string and after that you pretty much have free reign to do whatever you want. As far as getting the hit with decap. slice I like doing a normal assist+LMHxxuncharged Neck slicer the first time (Depeding on the speed of your assist you’ll usually call it along with the L or with the M and then you have a choice of 1 or 2 hits on the M depending on the specific timing requirements.)
At that point you should have a good idea what the opponent wants to do and if you feel they’re turtling get them with assist 2+LMHxxdecap. slice. You can add some layers here by changing when you buffer your other assist. You’ll still want to be covered by an assist but you’ll want to buffer it in late so it doesn’t hit until after the command grab attempt. Usually when seeing the assist come out they’ll just keep turtling expecting the blockstring to continue, if they try to get out (either jab mash or jumping) you’ll either get a counter hit or be safe enough to go into another blockstring.
If they’re mashing on the AG after that first string, you’ll want to go into a c.L frame trap since there’s a good chance they’ll dash and open themselves up. If you try that and they go back to turtling, I would say you have a few options. With a really slow assist (drones/EoA/missiles) you can do a c.L+assist, wait, forward throw into combo. If you have a faster assist or one more suited for lockdown, do a c.L+assist into the j.M instant overhead (j.M>2HxxTA L is what you’ll normally want to go into since it will give you a safe blockstring and you can keep going.)
If they’re a chicken blocker you’ll want to start using the Falling Claw OS since you’ll have time to do Assist+AS in most cases to get a followup. If you’re against someone that’s really good at teching your air throw attempts, start mixing that up with j.m or j.l into her jump loops (j.mmhs x3 or x2 if an assist gets a few hits also.)
The last thing I would recommend is her ‘Berserker Slash’ Crossup with MF MxxTA L. You’ll be relatively safe with that option, but I would still call an assist to make it worse. You can have a lot of fun with something like cr.LM+assist, HxxMF MxxTA L cr. Lx2 j.M 2HxxTA L (this usually puts you back on the other side so you don’t lose the corner and you pretty much get 3 mixups in one string so win/win.)
If you’re still having trouble opening someone up after using all of these options then I’m not sure what to tell you. Almost everyone has a few weaknesses in their defense so just figure out what that is and get em.
Why would you OS back airthrow… I’m assuming this is a mistake.
For the new guy(s), it’s the front airthrow you want to be OS’ing, seeing as that’s the one that let’s you combo.
Also her frame trap game is not cr.L pause cr.LMH, this is simply string staggering and is nothing unique to x-23. Her frame trap game is using cr. M feint cancelled into continuation strings with either M or H, and punishing push-blocks with dash up j.dH, hop xx TA L and other such tools. When you train them not to push buttons, you can mix it up by going for cross ups using M feints, unblockables using H feints and a low assists, and other shenanigans like the berserker derp.
@Merkyl I’ll be adding you btw, can you shoot me a msg when you start the lobby? I tend to get confused with time differences and all that.
List is not all inclusive, obviously. The reason I OS back airthrow is because wavedash - jump - downforward.H will result in a CS if my inputs are even a little bit sloppy. I do back airthrow OS because there’s zero chance of me getting an accidental CS… maybe you guys don’t have this issue, good for you, bad for me, lol. Back airthrow still leads to a very strong mixup that isn’t subject to throw scaling, so it’s not a terrible tradeoff, IMO.
As for frametraps, what exactly is the advantage of doing cr.M, MFC as opposed to just a cr.L?
More range, more active frames, much better hitbox.
Also I think the first hit of crM has shorter block stun, so they are more prone to having a button come out. Feint cancelling also means that you are free to dash through a pushblock if they get it.
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The last match has some really nice X-23 pressure and frame trappage.
The pinning of dark hole was used very well in that set. There was an airthrow that I thought you would follow up with Wesker OTG>snap-in to force phx out, but you elected keep the momentum of pressure high and still won. Interesting.
Is Decap slice really considered a “pressure” move? More like high-risk, high reward stuff if you ask me.
I’ve always thought of decapitating slice as a deterrent-type move if anything. If they’re good at down-backing and blocking well, all it takes is one decapitating slice to get them to start jumping after blockstrings. Then they’ll be more vulnerable to lows (and you never really have to use decap slice again, lol).
interesting little mixup my friend figured out on accident even though he doesnt play X23. figured it out like 2 months ago but i barely started implementing it into my mixup so it goes like this: in the corner if you kill a character, you can mirage faint M to get to the corner and make the person come on the other side. Once you do the mirage faint M and wait a while for them to almost come in, you walljump from the corner to them and as they land, if you timed it right, you do S and it crosses up all the time. obviously doesnt work if a character has a way to maneuver out of the landing spot ie. air dash.
and also as someone mentioned above, outside of an anti air H, MFC are never a good option combowise as the scaling hurts the combo overall. I find the only use for MFC are if you are trying to show off your execution. This is the reason why i mentioned in the hypothetical nerfs/buff thread that what X23 needed was an extension of that hitbox for anti air as it has a misleading hitbox that doesnt extend all the way to her claw and it moves her hurtbox towards aswell so it shouldnt be this way when characters like the devil brothers, Wolv, Doom, and Dorm have exaggerated hitboxes.
I was thinking back on the question why use MFC cr.M for trapping rather than cr.L and I overlooked something in my original answer that I think deserves mentioning. The reason why cr.M and, to an extent, s. H are so good for trapping, is that they move x23 forward a metric fuckton. After connecting a cr.M, unless they pushblock, you should nearly always be in prime position to go for a d.H ambiguous crossup/frametrap.
If you do an MFC hitconfirm into the Crescent Scythe Loop, that’s pretty much her strongest combo if you start with st.M(1hit), HxxMFC>H. It doesn’t reduce her scaling(in fact, it adds damage) and is a very powerful way to hitconfirm into her combos, because if the MFC sequence gets blocked, it’s completely safe, leaves her at an advantage, comes from one of her best normals and you have a healthy amount of time to visually confirm whether or not you’ve landed the hit. It’s almost an auto-pilot pressure string from a poke(one of her 2nd fastest normals at 5-frames) that can lead into high damage.
Even if you do an MFC combo that doesn’t go into a Scythe Loop, the scaled damage is a small price to pay for being able to hitconfirm more easily, from a greater distance on top of having a strong blockstring. MFCing from cr.M is slightly weaker damage-wise and slightly slower by 1-frame, but has more range and is also a low.
If X-23 players can get a handle of mastering this hitconfirm> the Scythe Loop, you can confirm into top damage more easily from a further distance.
EDIT: Fixed up the notation on the MFC hitconfirm.
TBH Damage is the least of X-23’s concerns. She can get like 900k for one bar off a hit confirm if she has assists stocked, and 800+k for 1 bar with just an OTG assist.
I think she would be a better character if they tweaked her specials just a tiny bit. Like making the startup of CS invincible like other shoryu’s, or making the backflip portion of her slices invincible so they can actually be used for trapping/pressure.
Also her hitboxes are a bit of a problem. Last night I was frame trapping a dormammu who was just guessing throw in the hopes of beating me out of my pressure and got a cr.H which beat out my airborne d.H and confirmed into death from there. Finally her TA L could do with a bunch more block stun. Being able to be grab punished is pretty stupid imho and makes matchups like Magneto (which is already like 9.5-0.5) and Taskmaster even more impossible.
I think X-23 could also do with tweaked normals, her hitboxes aren’t very good like we’ve been saying for a while now. What confuses me is why they felt the need to increase X-23’s cr.L from 4 frames to 5. I have two suspicions as to why they did this. Either because people were complaining about it back in Vanilla(of all the things to complain about lol), or they didn’t want X-23 self-relaunching (dunno about this one, and she can do it anyway, it’s just extremely difficult and probably char specific.)
As for Talons, I’d like their old hitstun back. Maybe faster start-up on uncharged Neck Slice? But mostly, I want better range on her normals.
Also, I think D+H isn’t completely tight, so chars with high reaching normals can smack you out of it, especially if they’re jabbing or have a high reaching cr.H. D+H crushes lows reaching attacks but not highs. To beat chars with high reaching cr.Hs if they’re mashing on advancing guard, there’s two ways you can go about it.
The best way’s probably to stagger your strings(L( very slight delay)>M(1hit)HxxMFC. Or HxxMFCxN since it’s a one hit move, the pause between each MFC’d’ll lull into attacking into your frame advantage. Once they know they can’t push buttons, you get some lee-way into setting up whatever mix-ups you need(preferably with assists.)
Risky/gimmicky advancing guard baiting. M(1hit)>HxxMFC before the H hits so their laggy normal comes out and gets eaten up by your following normal. Not many advancing guard the first hit they block, but they generally advancing guard the 2nd, which is where the trick comes in. They go to advancing guard your 2nd hit(which doesn’t happen) and they get a laggy normal instead.
Looking back on this, this will probably get you killed because the string’s not tight, even if you follow up with a throw I think. If they advancing guard with M+H, X-23’s normals will probably beat out their slow Hs. If they’re mashing on an attack or throw, you get tagged, but the biggest issue is if they’re mashing advancing guard with L+M, you get tagged as well, which is more fool-proof since M normals are faster. If you could only advancing guard with M+H, this form of advancing guard baiting might be more effective.
