But the thing is that tornado throw has 5 frame startup / 2 actives frames
while if rose does her kara throw she would have 21 throw invincible frames
would cl.mk just come out instead ?
trying to read frame data can be confusing sometimes…
Rose wouldn’t have 21 frames of throw invincibility. At most she’d have 6f, if even that much because the startup of cl.MK would cancel into throw. For that to work, you’d still need to cancel cl.MK into throw at the absolute last moment to avoid being grabbed and I don’t even know if it’s possible to delay the throw for that long.
Like I said earlier, you’re better off just doing a neutral jump.
There’s not much Abel can do about st. mk either btw.
Other than U1 and EX Change of Direction.
:).
I didn’t know Tornado Throw was throw invincible too. 
I was moreso leaning towards the option select path so Rose could OS it and he won’t be able to do anything but backdash.
EDIT: Someone do a Honda writeup please.
TT is throw invincible, EX is strike invincible. and focusing step kick is a good idea…focusing after that is a risk though.
Almost everything against Abel is a risk. It’s just a matter of how much. Throw after a blocked, dash-cancelled step kick is your safest option. Unless you time it too late it will beat everything except Tornado Throw and Ultra 1 if Abel decides to throw that out for whatever reason.
Also, I updated the Guile matchup. Original writeup was lacking detail and I’ve been rethinking the matchup figures after some discussion in the tier thread and playing against a friend who mains Guile.
I don’t see how you think Rose/Guile is 5:5. Guile shouldn’t be beating an on-point Rose in the fireball game and Rose is better at footsies. Guile only wins if he has Rose in the corner. Similar to the Rose/Ryu matchup. U1 is also good to beat out a Guile trying to chip you out with U2 or catch a jumping Guile who’s trying to get in on you.
STILL WAITING FOR MY HONDA WRITEUP. ANYBODY? I lost to a Honda at my last major and did some studying but I still don’t know the finer points of the matchup. Akuma is another matchup I don’t really get.
I think I do a good job of explaining why I feel it’s a 5:5 in my writeup. I feel this matchup is quite even between players who know the matchup and their respective characters well. Both characters have options. Rose’s might be a bit more effective but until she gets in on Guile, she has to play reactively in this matchup. She’s still playing Guile’s game essentially, which is to get past his wall of pokes and projectiles.
Theoretically, yes, Guile should not be able to beat a Rose that’s on point with her fireball game but that’s because in a perfect world Rose would neve miss a single reflect. You act as if Guile has no way of controlling the speed or timing of his Sonic Boom. Let’s not forget spacing as well. The closer Rose is, the tougher it is for her to reflect on reaction. Rose’s footsies are good, certainly, but so are Guile’s. He’s certainly not defenseless. Rose does have better footsies overall but Guiles pokes aren’t shabby either and they can contend with Rose’s.
Those two applications are hardly compelling reasons to use U1. I’m certainly not going to pick an Ultra in hopes that I can use it when my opponent does something utterly retarded.
Rose doesn’t really need to get in on Guile, IMO. Rose builds meter way faster than Guile and her fireballs do more damage than his do. The fireball war is still in her favor even if she’s caught off-guard with a fast Sonic Boom. She also doesn’t HAVE to reflect or negate every Sonic Boom he throws; they do laughable chip damage and she can focus backdash to regain momentum. She can sit back at the edge of the screen and build meter all day while he gets a tiny sliver for every Sonic Boom he throws. Once she has bar she can do whatever the hell she wants.
I’m not saying the match isn’t winnable for Guile, but it’s definitely easier for Rose to win. A 6:4 matchup doesn’t need to be heavily unbalanced. It’s a slight advantage. She gains meter faster than him, can keep up with and even benefit from his fireballs, and has the edge in footsies. What does Guile have on Rose that cancels out all of those advantages and make it 5:5?
I also wasn’t saying that U1 was a better pick in this matchup. I personally use U2, but U1 has its uses. Trying to chip someone out with U2 is also not “utterly retarded”. It happens quite often, and Rose has no answer to it other than U1.
I don’t think Rose can simply stay at the edge of the screen against Guile. Rose in corner against Guile is something she doesn’t want AT ALL. Of course Rose doesn’t necessarily need to go near Guile all the time but Rose also can’t win this fight by simply reflecting / blocking / absorbing sonic booms. Guile can still close the gap between the 2 AND keep the charge of his sonic boom at the same time, making Rose having less time to react properly at the given situation.
Sure she wins the fireball war but to what extent ? Guile still has time to throw a sonic boom and FADC the last hit of EX soul spark making the use of meter fullscreen completely useless for Rose (if we stay with the fact that Rose doesn’t need to get near Guile…)
What does Guile have against Rose ?
- Rose can’t jump on Guile / Guile can jump on reaction on Rose (He also doesn’t need to throw sonic booms all the time)
- Guile wins air to air battle
- Guile can follow his sonic boom
- Guile has a better “GTFO” move than Rose
- Guile has the ability to pressure Rose in the corner
- Guile can vary the speed of his sonic booms
I’m going to assume here that you’ve never fought a good Guile before because this sounds like pure theory fighter naivety to me. Feel free to sit at the edge of the screen. You’ll be giving Guile exactly what he wants - space. Like cerberusfx mentioned, Guile can gain ground while still maintaining charge by using b.LK.
Soul Spark indeed does more damage than Sonic Boom. So? Fireballs are for controlling space, not dealing damage. I also highly doubt you’d be able land non-EX Soul Sparks on a Guile consistently enough to make that damage advantage significant.
You act like Rose is all-powerful once she has meter. Not the case. She can’t do whatever the hell she wants. She certainly has an easier time reflecting now with EX Reflect and she can also throw EX Spark, but that’s not going to win her games. Neither of those options net her knockdown or will push Guile to the corner on their own. At best, they help get her footsies in the door. Even then, she still has to contend with Guile’s own pokes and the threat of Flash Kick, which is a fantastic move for blowing through frame-traps and Spiral blockstrings.
Trying to chip Rose out with Sonic Hurricane is utterly retarded if she has U1. Situation’s never happened to me before and I’d be probably be dead regardless.
Ultra 2 is the better pick because it nets Rose ground and if she’s fortunate, even some damage. No way I’d be giving that up for an incredibly situational Ultra. That’s fucking stupid.
I should’ve specified better. My blurb about how Rose can stay at the edge of the screen was a response to the idea that Rose has to work her way in on Guile. Rose is different than most characters in the way that she doesn’t HAVE to play Guile’s game. Guile gets most of his damage from keeping people out, and Rose doesn’t have to deal with it. I wasn’t saying that Rose needs to play the far-screen game. She can sit back and gain meter if she wants, and if Guile works his way in, she still has the edge unless he has her in the corner.
Here’s an example of what I meant. It’s from Super, but the way Sako plays Guile is how I think it should be played:
[media=youtube]gWdN0NvRq_s[/media]
He’s fine with staying at the edge of the screen, building meter. Once he has meter, he’s free to get in whenever he wants. Once he’s in, he out-footsies him. Simple. There’s no reason to play Guile’s game and chase him down doing point-blank, guessed reflects when you can negate it almost entirely, even moreso in 2012 where she has her EX Reflect buffed and Guile’s meter gain is nerfed (IIRC).
Honestly, the only thing Guile has that truly gives Rose trouble is being able to Flash Kick on reaction through Spiral/Spark blockstrings. That’s it.
I also, once again, wasn’t saying that U1 should be picked over U2, I was just listing another use for it. :>
Let’s be real now, have you faced good Guiles before that actually know the matchup or are you simply speculating? That’s what it sounds like to me.
Theoretically Rose can hang back but she can only afford to do so if she has a substantial life lead and is confident she can keep Guile out. Once Guile has the life lead though, Rose absolutely needs to go in him. And no, meter does not give Rose a free way in. I have no idea why you would assume that. Like I said, EX Reflect helps with Sonic Booms at bay in close range but it’s not equivalent to a ticket for free pressure. Rose still has to contend with Guile’s pokes which are quite good. Guile’s reduced meter gain makes the matchup easier since she has to worry less about EX Sonic Boom or safe Flash Kicks but it’s not a huge difference.
And like I said about Ultra 1, it’s a shitty use.
Rose BEATS Guile.
It’s not even. The way that matched is played is that Guile throws booms and you counteract his booms with your sparks and reflects.
Guile has to go in… Of course Rose loses in the corner, every character does. :/.
Guile doesn’t have the greatest rushdown and you have better normals than Guile does :/.
*His EX Booms are one of the easiest things to EX Reflect now so there is no possible way Guile can even stand a chance again you in the fireball game.
*Rose builds meter fast and does more DAMAGE per a spark.
Basically, you’re putting Guile out of his comfort zone. And there is no other character Guile has to rush in on. There is not one.
EDIT:
I just have to edit to say that everyone needs to learn the Sako shimmy (walk back forth back crouch down).
I need to get myself to learn patterns to start exploiting that. lol.
This is going nowhere. I’m going to remain skeptical until I see a high-level Rose consistently and convincingly beat a high-level Guile. In my own experience it’s 5.5/4.5 for Rose at best. I think Rose has good tools to deal with Guile’s but he still has a good fighting chance. And again, I don’t think Rose’s normals are substantially better than Guile’s.
That aside, I played a strong Balrog last week who had some incredible meaty pressure and mixups. Made great use of the shimmy. Cr.LP, cr.LP followed by a stutter step backwards then forwards into throw. He’d switch that up with walk back cr.MP xx LP Rush Punch or walk back st.HK. Smart stuff.
I’ve started doing a similar tactic after forward throws and Spiral Knockdown, except with cr.LK -> cr.MP xx LK or EX Spiral instead. It’s quite effective.
That Guile must be substantially better than you.
Here is a good example:
Josh (sksksksk) wasn’t near Dieminion’s level in terms of gameplay. Dieminion’s level while playing the game is unbelievably high, one of the best in the US.
Yet Josh’s Rose took full games and rounds off Dieminion. Dieminion had such a hard time beating even Josh’s Rose.
If that doesn’t say anything about the Rose-Guile matchup, I don’t know what does. If that huge of a level gap was there and then you can’t see that it’s in Rose’s favor, I just don’t know.
Got a video?
there are a few archived. give me a few days to dig them up because spooky has a lot of crap behind it all.
And this happened, as you can imagine, quite a while ago…
we need a mod to make this thread as a sticky and replace the old one
Added Gouken matchup.