No regular throw attempt is untechable. The timing may be a little off but techable nonetheless.
Yeah I definitely saw it happening when I was in battle lounge more than three times against an opponent Chun last night, which is why I responded to his post in the first place. However, I went back into training mode just now, and I saw that if you mash throw as Chun when you get hit by LP Bolt you’ll tech pretty consistently, so I’m not really sure what was going on there anymore, sorry. I made sure that I wasn’t pressing any inputs, and in fact moved the stick back a bit on both characters to see if that range differential did anything, and it didn’t work out.
Overall LP Bolt -> Throw/Sunset Wheel is still a good mixup, but I guess the original tech from the above post doesn’t work lol.
EDIT: Also, if you expect them to throw but don’t want to risk the 52f sunset wheel recovery, 5LP will stuff the enemy throw just fine, and puts you at advantage if they block, too. Lots of possibilities here.
Yea all normal throws are always techable. My point was after hitting with the LP bolt Chun’s normal throw will whiff on you (but you can throw her provided you throw immediately after the LP bolt).
Can someone break down the oki options in an easy format? I tried using the other thread with frame data but the math is way over my head. For example like this:
When you score a ___ you can apply pressure with ____.
After a command throw =
[list]
[] VSF another command throw
[] LP bolt charge
[] st.hp
[] I’m making the above up I have no idea which is safe or not but I’m just giving examples
[/list]
After forward throw =
After back throw =
After a split river =
After a rodeo break =
This is so awesome thank you
Does it matter which normal you use to cancel the VSF? And if so, it there a normal that would put you in + after a VSF? Or is it that all VSF puts you in -?
What’s the difference between the claps other than distance traveled?
Is it true that they all have the same startup? If so, what is MP clap for, given that L cancels easier into combos and H is better for actual fireball game?
Each normal is different in how much disadvantage they give, but all are negative, whether canceled on hit or guard. On hit the best you can get is -1, while on guard the best you can get is -2, and sadly the two moves that give you -2, st.mp and cr.mp, have extremely limited range meaning you’re not likely to want to cancel them into an avante (VSF) because you were already close enough so all you did was make yourself less safe on block or hit (maybe off blocked cr.mp as that has a surprising amount of push back and doesn’t advance itself like st.mp). I suppose I could see it off st.hp or cr.hp, its -1 on hit or -5 on block, but at least their range is enough that you could be throwing them out at a range where getting in might be worth the disadvantage.
If I had to pick “The” button I cancel the most with it, it would be st.mk, largely because st.mk doesn’t generally lead to anything on hit anyway since it can’t be special cancelled, and I’m frequently using st.mk as a way to get in from just out side close range, so the avante cancel gets me the rest of the way in, albeit at disdvantage.
To be honest though, I rarely avante cancel moves, I just don’t find being in at disadvantage worth while, whats the point of getting in if I’ve just put myself in a mixup, I’m pretty much banking it all on the “surprise” factor, but I feel like thats a gimmick that good players will adjust to fast, if they don’t already have it down coming into the match up. Still its an area I continue to revisit again and again desperately looking for a purpose for, if for no other reason then the fact that I see birdie’s dolphin dive work in high level matches time and time again, and thats another gimmick move that on paper should never work at high level play.
The only difference is the distance traveled, they all have the same start up, same recovery, same advantage/disdavantage on hit/guard, same damage, and same time on screen.
I believe there are some special combos people have found that are character specific where hp clap won’t work, but mp clap will, but outside of that… as far as I know its pretty much sub optimal in nearly any situation where you could use a lp clap or hp clap. I think its kind of like her cr.lk, if you try really hard I’m sure you can concoct a situation where it might be useful, but if you ever actually find yourself in that situation, in the time it will take you to remember that said option even exists, the opportunity to take advantage of it has probably passed.
MP clap isn’t nearly as terrible as 2LK, give it some credit LOL. I use it if I VSB sometimes, it’ll still reach the opponent but at a later time than HP clap and LP clap doesn’t reach at all. It’s situationally useful because if I use the MP over HP clap, I’ll have more time to do whatever to make my opponent flinch - of course, it’s a whole timing issue but I’ve noticed that a lot of people would just block the HP clap but when I use MP clap, it’s ambiguous enough to not know necessarily if it’s going to reach them or not so I can bait them into sticking something out and get hit by it or they’ll still block it like a normal HP clap. Not what I would call game changing by any means, but it does have its uses.
Some good points, it can add a layer of unpredictability to claps distance at certain ranges. Still pretty situational, but arguably more useful then cr.lk. But hey, cr.lk kind of sort of got a small buff with the increase in characters pre-jump frames, right? So if your opponents disrespecting your ability to attack low, has 38 life left, and is is close enough to chain two cr.lk, maybe your glad you remembered this button existed now?
I thought about distance-based mixups but I didn’t really have a good situation to apply it in. This is a pretty good example, I hadn’t thought about that.
Sorry but I got a newbie question, how exactly does the clap work? Say, after a blocked jump if I do a clap at very close range, is it basically a shield? Will I get hit or am I always safe while it is in front of me?
I don’t use the clap at all because I’m not sure when I should be using it
Generally, it’s a wall unless the opponent hits you, which makes the fireball disappear. So for example you can use it as an antiair, but it’ll only work provided their hit doesn’t land on your head at the same time as your clap lands on them, in which case their kick wins out and you get hurt. The startup on it means that if you do it immediately after blocking an opponent jump attack means you’ll likely get beat up by their next attack though, so try to use it at a far range, or as part of a combo (do the Trials! they’re surprisingly informative).
Clap is very tricky to use effectively (IMHO). The biggest issues are that:
- The actual hit box is lower then the graphic makes it appear so characters are frequently able to kick you in the head when it looks like they should have fallen on it
- There are a ton of low normals in this game which will go under it and unlike most projectiles, if you get hit, the clap dissipates, meaning you don’t even get a trade out of it if they low forward or sweep you with a clap in their face.
- Laura moves forward prior to throwing it out, frequently causing her to step into attacks or other projectiles you intended to clash with.
I tend to use ex clap the most, it controls space for a long time, blows up other projectiles or 1 armor moves, and is +3 on block, so you can combo into it at close range to set up frame traps or frame advantage mix ups. For the non-ex… I’ll some times buffer them into Esquiva (BVS). Like maybe I’m fishing for a counter hit hp -> esquiva -> mp.bolt but I don’t get it, so I use a clap instead in the hopes of improving the safety of my re-approach. My favorite brainless dizzy punish (even if it probably is suboptimal) is fully charged clap into f+HP target combo ending with hp.bolt, so if nothing else I find them useful for that. All of the claps get a lot better in v trigger too since they charge much faster and last longer, so I tend to use them more like actual projectiles when in v trigger. Ex clap is also a ridiculous +7 on block when in v trigger, so lots of possibilities there.
I have to say though, its definitely not a move I use a lot, SF5 so far just seems like its provided nearly every character with at least one, if not a couple, solid anti-projectile options, and nothing a non-ex clap provides me usually seems to justify giving my opponent the opportunity to partake of those options. I have a theory that the key to really unlocking its potential may lie in finding consistency in that perfect timing for the minimal amount of charge to reach level 2 clap, since its 2 hits blow up a lot of that anti-fireball tech based around armor and allow you to approach with it as a shield for up to 80 frames, but man, 41 frames is a LONG time to be standing fixed in place during its start up, and you’ve still got 24 more frames of recovery after, so thats over a full second of having your feet nailed to the floor, even at level 2’s minimum, I struggle to find situations where an opponent would give me that kind of time outside of dizzies or distances from which the clap still won’t get there before it dissipates, so all I’ve done is shield my way into mid range, which is generally where I don’t want to be with Laura. I definitely plan to keep exploring clap, however, as it remains one of the defining features of Laura that separate her from the other grapplers.
I tend to abuse EX clap at lot, particularly in frame trap strings because if they get hit by the frame trap, then I get the mix up from landing the EX clap; if they block everything, then it leaves me at +3 for continued pressure. As far as regular clap goes, I don’t really use it that often, usually, I will use it fully charged at full screen because why not (assuming they don’t have something to blow me up from full screen)? Other times I will use it is simply as a footsie tool. It’s not the best footsie tool because it’s slow on start up and it leaves her wide open to attacks that are projectile invincible or jump ins so I use it sparingly. However, if I manage to get it out onto the screen and they’re not already jumping at me, then the opponent is put into a somewhat bad position - they have to block it, move back or jump, all of which gives Laura the upper hand. It gives Laura the opportunity to just move forward and push the opponent towards the corner where she really shines. So it’s kind of a give-and-take with the regular claps; she gambles to push her opponent back.
Clap is definitely what makes her different from the stereotypical grappler but it’s not something that she can just throw out without worry or consequence. She has to pick her spots and get a good feel for the opponent (what else is new, right?). If the opponent anticipates a Clap and jumps at her and she doesn’t do it, she can easily HP bolt them out of the air. Laura really is about conditioning the opponent, even at mid-screen. That said though, this is part of the reason why I feel like good shoto players give her problems because they can easily use the same strategy against her and they do it better. Shoto players who knows where to be on the screen and when to throw a fireball is perhaps the hardest thing for Laura to deal with - they can be out of range of EX elbow or fake fireballs and make her waste meter and without meter, she has no way to get in against this strategy.
The only thing I have to add to the clap discussion is it’s very much to your advantage to learn clap trapping, which is where you throw a LP clap that’s close enough to force guard without connecting. Once you learn that sweet spot it really opens up another layer of mixups, since they will be unable to walk backward and if they throw out a button they will usually get hit by it and you can get a free combo. Also at the right distance you can mix in a LK command grab without having to move forward.
Sorry if it’s been asked, but I’m having trouble doing a command throw after the ex fireball mixup mid screen. I’m doing ex tc > st.hp xx v sill dash forward > command throw. If I cross under I can always get command throw, but when I stay on the same side it doesn’t come out. I thought it was timing or a bad input but I can’t seem to figure it out. Anyone else run into this?
That is because Laura crosses under the opponent for a couple frames before going back into the front screwing up your inputs. The best way I found to kind of get around this problem is to simply wait a bit for the opponent to get back into the original side before inputting the motion.
That said though, I’m not a fan of using 5HP for the reset for that same reason, I still prefer 5MK. The thing here isn’t really about making your opponent guess left-right (although Laura can do that), it’s about making your opponent guess whether you’re going to grab or not. With 5MK, she can get an incredibly meaty 5MP that is confirmable into 2HP or go for command grab. If Laura stays on the same side, I think she can link 5LK into 2MP but it’s much harder to confirm due to a smaller cancellable window and it’s less damaging. That’s just my take on Laura though and everyone’s philosophy and/or playstyle is different but I’m just offering alternatives.