Laura General Thread: Who The Hell Is Sean?

[mercureXI]

Any idea of many frames on startup for yoga teleport ?

It seems Sim can get out of many situations easily with that for now (no one really worked on teleport punishes for now)

[caliagent_3]

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

usually you aren’t gonna get a CC s.HK or w/e against people mashing jab after c.MP/c.MK xx backdash, but that’s not a big deal. this concept is still correct. you wanna go back and see what they are doing, if they aren’t pressing shit you could have grabbed, if they press something big you are in optimal position to whiff punish it. human beings CAN react to normal xx dash forward and punish it, but it’s fast enough that they have to be looking for that (and only that) which makes them vulnerable normal xx fireball, traditional frame traps, normal xx vskill back, etc. normal into dash will be good with laura for the foreseeable future if you mix it up properly. against even very good players who know it’s unsafe, I’ve been able to do c.MK xx dash back, dash forward command grab because I’ve conditioned them enough to be scared to press stuff.

as another point, using her fireball in neutral is going to become very important for certain matchups, specifically ryu, chun, and nash. you need to take advantage of how far it lunges her forward and literally just do fireball over and over as your approach. you will eventually get them to the corner, especially if they fuck around and let you charge one a little to walk behind. then it’s a matter of looking for their jump escape or picking the right time to dash through the fireball and grab. if you can’t do this strategy right then you have no chance of beating any decent chun or nash player for sure.

I’ve been doing this mixup during the last beta. If they’re mashing after the backdash you get a CC sweep.

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

Good luck with that. Not gonna work in real match situation at all. Only on paper.

It’s not theory, it works. Her command dash forward works if your mixing your cancels to back dash and fireballs.

Please explain us your setup to get that sweep CC.

Because I don’t see how it could work considering you can’t cancel your command backdash with normals (only non-command grab specials) and Laur’as sweep has 9 frames as startup added to the backdash frames.

Just tested a few setups, none work. And not “almost working”, they fail hard.

Since you did this during beta, you might have a few setups to share no ?

S.mk xx backdash, sweep. If they try to c.jab you get sweep, if it’s blocked you’re safe. It’s similar to doing jab, walk back whiff punish in old games. The difference being they’ll be afraid of the dash forward.

the

Sorry but that setup isn’t working like, at all.

No way you’ll get a CC off that setup if your opponent does a cLP.

Sorry, I think you only theorized about it, and never actually tested it.

Thus no one being afraid of that option and just pushing cLP if they notice a dash (forward or backwards, doesnt matter, especially when you have +20frames to react to dash forward options)

This is where you are mixing up theory and practice

You’re right that dash back, sweep isn’t gonna cc somebody on the jab, but dashing back and looking for a whiff punish is still legit

people can hit a jab if they see a dash but to do that they need to look for the dash which opens them up to just getting command grabbed in the first place. All fighting game characters individual tools are bad, they become good by putting them in context of the other options. Maybe you’re the chosen one and you can punish Laura for this every time (when you’re not too busy jumping over every hadoken on reaction), but assuming you aren’t, I would really recommend opening your mind to some techniques that aren’t 100% based on counting frames and instead get a sense for what people are actually gonna react to.

Except, it’s supposed to be a setup to CC people that mash jab.

Not a “fish and see what happens, in case I need to whiff punish a long ass normal” thing.

Never said anything about not being able to whiff punish shit from a command backdash during pressure. It’s OBVIOUS you can whiff punish things that way.

But we weren’t talking about that AT ALL.

Thanks for your input though.** Irrelevant** but thanks anyway.

It actually works in both applications. CC bait and whiff punishing bait. Like I said I’ve been using it the entire beta. What you’re probably testing against is a frame perfect jab, which they’ll probably be able to block the sweep, but you’re still safe. This really isn’t even something to debate since I’ve already done it multiple times. I’m going to assume you’re a newer player/online player which is why you can’t see the practical application.

[AndyG]

Of course using a frametrap will prevent them from doing so, but sMK doesnmove’t frametrap anything, and still you see people (even Sabre) using sMK > dash.

Meaning that you can jab after his sMK. You will either jab his dashin, or whiff jab if he backdashes. You can try and sweep, you will never punish that.

This is where human reactions are gonna mean a lot. You are correct in theory. Jab after s.mk is gonna beat everything Laura has. But if you look too hard for that move, you’re just gonna get command thrown. So later on you can get s.mk into stuff, whether it’s a dash, command grab, other s.MP, etc. Even though s.MK is at frame disadvantage. Same reason you sometimes see good Guile players managing to pressure after negative command normals etc.

As for the dash back into s.HK/c.HK setup, it might not make sense numbers-wise, but just like it worked for tons of other characters in tons of older games, it’ll work here. Up to you if you don’t feel like using it

This is where I disagree.

You see sMK on guard, you can push cLP for free : 1) can’t cancel into specials 2) dash-in is unsafe 3) dash-out can’t punish your jab

And sMK on guard being -1, if you try to command throw, you’re jabbed anyway.

So, sure, people can derp and wait for winter to come again, but focusing your gameplan on hoping people will choose the worst option every time, is not what I’d call “great lab work”.

You are indeed right about “human making errors, you can make work things that usually don’t work”, but that’s not what we talk about here.

We talk about guaranteed setups and strategies that work without counting on people making mistakes.

Caliagent told us he used his “setup” during last beta and it worked when people mashed jab to score a CC.

My point is : “Nope. It’s not happening. Not in SFV beta 3-4”.

I agree about movement based character will create openings, sometimes, when there aren’t any “in theory” (El Fuerte is a good example), but that’s not the discussion we’re having here.

Game is young, better first work on actual real setups THEN work on “stylish fake setups” (aka gimmicks).

It’s like you’d tell me about a fake frametrap and add “ok it’s not working, but sometimes people will be late and it will work anyway”.

It may have its use, but is it our priority over finding “working stuff” ?

• Caliagent’s setup doesn’t work.
• sMK > dash (in or out) is a gimmick and can be punished every time, even though it may go unpunished “sometimes”.

That’s all there is to it.

I agree though that Laura will be a momentum character, that will be able to apply pressure for free when people become afraid of your guaranteed setups.

What I mean is you can’t just jab when you see s.mk on block. Your reactions aren’t good enough to do that consistently unless you sacrifice other focus and you’ll get chucked a lot.

Anyway, these forums are for a lot of things. Mainly for talking about how to win at fighting games. We have different definitions for what is “real” vs what is a “gimmick”. Either your definition will eventually change to be more pragmatic, or maybe you can really play flawlessly according to theory, in which case I recommend coming back here and gloating after your first couple major 1st places In all seriousness, we’ll just have to see when the game comes out, and agree to disagree in the meantime.

[mercureXI]

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

usually you aren’t gonna get a CC s.HK or w/e against people mashing jab after c.MP/c.MK xx backdash, but that’s not a big deal. this concept is still correct. you wanna go back and see what they are doing, if they aren’t pressing shit you could have grabbed, if they press something big you are in optimal position to whiff punish it. human beings CAN react to normal xx dash forward and punish it, but it’s fast enough that they have to be looking for that (and only that) which makes them vulnerable normal xx fireball, traditional frame traps, normal xx vskill back, etc. normal into dash will be good with laura for the foreseeable future if you mix it up properly. against even very good players who know it’s unsafe, I’ve been able to do c.MK xx dash back, dash forward command grab because I’ve conditioned them enough to be scared to press stuff.

as another point, using her fireball in neutral is going to become very important for certain matchups, specifically ryu, chun, and nash. you need to take advantage of how far it lunges her forward and literally just do fireball over and over as your approach. you will eventually get them to the corner, especially if they fuck around and let you charge one a little to walk behind. then it’s a matter of looking for their jump escape or picking the right time to dash through the fireball and grab. if you can’t do this strategy right then you have no chance of beating any decent chun or nash player for sure.

I’ve been doing this mixup during the last beta. If they’re mashing after the backdash you get a CC sweep.

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

Good luck with that. Not gonna work in real match situation at all. Only on paper.

It’s not theory, it works. Her command dash forward works if your mixing your cancels to back dash and fireballs.

Please explain us your setup to get that sweep CC.

Because I don’t see how it could work considering you can’t cancel your command backdash with normals (only non-command grab specials) and Laur’as sweep has 9 frames as startup added to the backdash frames.

Just tested a few setups, none work. And not “almost working”, they fail hard.

Since you did this during beta, you might have a few setups to share no ?

S.mk xx backdash, sweep. If they try to c.jab you get sweep, if it’s blocked you’re safe. It’s similar to doing jab, walk back whiff punish in old games. The difference being they’ll be afraid of the dash forward.

the

Sorry but that setup isn’t working like, at all.

No way you’ll get a CC off that setup if your opponent does a cLP.

Sorry, I think you only theorized about it, and never actually tested it.

Thus no one being afraid of that option and just pushing cLP if they notice a dash (forward or backwards, doesnt matter, especially when you have +20frames to react to dash forward options)

This is where you are mixing up theory and practice

You’re right that dash back, sweep isn’t gonna cc somebody on the jab, but dashing back and looking for a whiff punish is still legit

people can hit a jab if they see a dash but to do that they need to look for the dash which opens them up to just getting command grabbed in the first place. All fighting game characters individual tools are bad, they become good by putting them in context of the other options. Maybe you’re the chosen one and you can punish Laura for this every time (when you’re not too busy jumping over every hadoken on reaction), but assuming you aren’t, I would really recommend opening your mind to some techniques that aren’t 100% based on counting frames and instead get a sense for what people are actually gonna react to.

Except, it’s supposed to be a setup to CC people that mash jab.

Not a “fish and see what happens, in case I need to whiff punish a long ass normal” thing.

Never said anything about not being able to whiff punish shit from a command backdash during pressure. It’s OBVIOUS you can whiff punish things that way.

But we weren’t talking about that AT ALL.

Thanks for your input though.** Irrelevant** but thanks anyway.

It actually works in both applications. CC bait and whiff punishing bait. Like I said I’ve been using it the entire beta. What you’re probably testing against is a frame perfect jab, which they’ll probably be able to block the sweep, but you’re still safe. This really isn’t even something to debate since I’ve already done it multiple times. I’m going to assume you’re a newer player/online player which is why you can’t see the practical application.

Yeah sure, I’m a new player in fighting games. That must be why I don’t understand that your “setup” is a ghetto setup that doesn’t work at all.

Except I’m not … And that setup isn’t working at all. Try it yourself if needed. For real this time.

“Mashing jab” usually means “jab as soon as possible”, but for your sake, let’s say it’s a jab 2 frames AFTER the “frame perfect” timing. Still doesn’t work.

Better just stop promoting that CC setup “for people that mash jabs” … like right now … you still have people thinking you messed up words in here, I guess.

But then again, you must be a newer player / online player, that can’t see when a setup works or not …

Could work as a “let’s fish a mistake” gimmick thing, but definitely NOT as a CC setup to punish mashers.

And don’t think I tell you that to annoy you or something (unlike your comment that turned into a “you’re a noob so you must not understand how great my shit is”), it’s just NOT WORKING as you told us it would.

And I actually tested it intensively in training mode.

Actually, using a command backdash cancelled (meaning removing recovery frames, something you can’t do with your sweep !) into a qcf+LP can help you a lot more with normal mashers (especially if you expect non-frame perfect normals).

Though it’s still not a setup that works for cLP mashers, it’s still way quicker, can stuff more things, and it’s safe on block / won’t whiff (unlike sweeps after command backdashes).

[AndyG]

^ using lp elbow there will indeed be really important to Laura

[mercureXI]

Of course using a frametrap will prevent them from doing so, but sMK doesnmove’t frametrap anything, and still you see people (even Sabre) using sMK > dash.

Meaning that you can jab after his sMK. You will either jab his dashin, or whiff jab if he backdashes. You can try and sweep, you will never punish that.

This is where human reactions are gonna mean a lot. You are correct in theory. Jab after s.mk is gonna beat everything Laura has. But if you look too hard for that move, you’re just gonna get command thrown. So later on you can get s.mk into stuff, whether it’s a dash, command grab, other s.MP, etc. Even though s.MK is at frame disadvantage. Same reason you sometimes see good Guile players managing to pressure after negative command normals etc.

As for the dash back into s.HK/c.HK setup, it might not make sense numbers-wise, but just like it worked for tons of other characters in tons of older games, it’ll work here. Up to you if you don’t feel like using it

This is where I disagree.

You see sMK on guard, you can push cLP for free : 1) can’t cancel into specials 2) dash-in is unsafe 3) dash-out can’t punish your jab

And sMK on guard being -1, if you try to command throw, you’re jabbed anyway.

So, sure, people can derp and wait for winter to come again, but focusing your gameplan on hoping people will choose the worst option every time, is not what I’d call “great lab work”.

You are indeed right about “human making errors, you can make work things that usually don’t work”, but that’s not what we talk about here.

We talk about guaranteed setups and strategies that work without counting on people making mistakes.

Caliagent told us he used his “setup” during last beta and it worked when people mashed jab to score a CC.

My point is : “Nope. It’s not happening. Not in SFV beta 3-4”.

I agree about movement based character will create openings, sometimes, when there aren’t any “in theory” (El Fuerte is a good example), but that’s not the discussion we’re having here.

Game is young, better first work on actual real setups THEN work on “stylish fake setups” (aka gimmicks).

It’s like you’d tell me about a fake frametrap and add “ok it’s not working, but sometimes people will be late and it will work anyway”.

It may have its use, but is it our priority over finding “working stuff” ?

• Caliagent’s setup doesn’t work.
• sMK > dash (in or out) is a gimmick and can be punished every time, even though it may go unpunished “sometimes”.

That’s all there is to it.

I agree though that Laura will be a momentum character, that will be able to apply pressure for free when people become afraid of your guaranteed setups.

What I mean is you can’t just jab when you see s.mk on block. Your reactions aren’t good enough to do that consistently unless you sacrifice other focus and you’ll get chucked a lot.

Anyway, these forums are for a lot of things. Mainly for talking about how to win at fighting games. We have different definitions for what is “real” vs what is a “gimmick”. Either your definition will eventually change to be more pragmatic, or maybe you can really play flawlessly according to theory, in which case I recommend coming back here and gloating after your first couple major 1st places In all seriousness, we’ll just have to see when the game comes out, and agree to disagree in the meantime.

Sure, you may not “jab every sMK on block”, but that setup is used to punish mashers, people that WILL jab every sMK on block, actually.

And it won’t. Ever. Not today. Not tomorrow. Never ever at all.

I really don’t understand what there is to understand.

A setup works or doesn’t.

If it only works “sometimes but if people are slow, but again, not too slow” … that’s not a setup, that’s random shit.

I already told you I get it : you can fish and whiff punish shit.

But that’s not what we were discussing here.

If I tell you about reset setups, you can do it 34 times, 34 times you will get a reset situation.

If I tell you about a meaty setup after a CC sweep, it will work every time you apply the setup.

Using normal > command backdash > sweep as a CC setup … sorry, it’s officially NO.

But yes, you can backdash, and whiff punish shit with a sweep, sometimes, but not cLP, unless people jab like reallllllllllllly late.

And all of this as nothing to do with being new (which, again, is not the case here) or playing online.

If you can’t replicate your setup and it has “random” written all over it, it’s not a setup at all.

[caliagent_3]

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

usually you aren’t gonna get a CC s.HK or w/e against people mashing jab after c.MP/c.MK xx backdash, but that’s not a big deal. this concept is still correct. you wanna go back and see what they are doing, if they aren’t pressing shit you could have grabbed, if they press something big you are in optimal position to whiff punish it. human beings CAN react to normal xx dash forward and punish it, but it’s fast enough that they have to be looking for that (and only that) which makes them vulnerable normal xx fireball, traditional frame traps, normal xx vskill back, etc. normal into dash will be good with laura for the foreseeable future if you mix it up properly. against even very good players who know it’s unsafe, I’ve been able to do c.MK xx dash back, dash forward command grab because I’ve conditioned them enough to be scared to press stuff.

as another point, using her fireball in neutral is going to become very important for certain matchups, specifically ryu, chun, and nash. you need to take advantage of how far it lunges her forward and literally just do fireball over and over as your approach. you will eventually get them to the corner, especially if they fuck around and let you charge one a little to walk behind. then it’s a matter of looking for their jump escape or picking the right time to dash through the fireball and grab. if you can’t do this strategy right then you have no chance of beating any decent chun or nash player for sure.

I’ve been doing this mixup during the last beta. If they’re mashing after the backdash you get a CC sweep.

I think you guys are looking at the command dash wrong. If you’re mixing up the dash off of a normal they will have to start guessing which direction you’re going. For example if they’re mashing jab in anticipation of the forward dash, you can do the back dash, do a sweep and score a CC. Or even better, dash back, cancel to forward dash after the mash and continue to pressure.

Good luck with that. Not gonna work in real match situation at all. Only on paper.

It’s not theory, it works. Her command dash forward works if your mixing your cancels to back dash and fireballs.

Please explain us your setup to get that sweep CC.

Because I don’t see how it could work considering you can’t cancel your command backdash with normals (only non-command grab specials) and Laur’as sweep has 9 frames as startup added to the backdash frames.

Just tested a few setups, none work. And not “almost working”, they fail hard.

Since you did this during beta, you might have a few setups to share no ?

S.mk xx backdash, sweep. If they try to c.jab you get sweep, if it’s blocked you’re safe. It’s similar to doing jab, walk back whiff punish in old games. The difference being they’ll be afraid of the dash forward.

the

Sorry but that setup isn’t working like, at all.

No way you’ll get a CC off that setup if your opponent does a cLP.

Sorry, I think you only theorized about it, and never actually tested it.

Thus no one being afraid of that option and just pushing cLP if they notice a dash (forward or backwards, doesnt matter, especially when you have +20frames to react to dash forward options)

This is where you are mixing up theory and practice

You’re right that dash back, sweep isn’t gonna cc somebody on the jab, but dashing back and looking for a whiff punish is still legit

people can hit a jab if they see a dash but to do that they need to look for the dash which opens them up to just getting command grabbed in the first place. All fighting game characters individual tools are bad, they become good by putting them in context of the other options. Maybe you’re the chosen one and you can punish Laura for this every time (when you’re not too busy jumping over every hadoken on reaction), but assuming you aren’t, I would really recommend opening your mind to some techniques that aren’t 100% based on counting frames and instead get a sense for what people are actually gonna react to.

Except, it’s supposed to be a setup to CC people that mash jab.

Not a “fish and see what happens, in case I need to whiff punish a long ass normal” thing.

Never said anything about not being able to whiff punish shit from a command backdash during pressure. It’s OBVIOUS you can whiff punish things that way.

But we weren’t talking about that AT ALL.

Thanks for your input though.** Irrelevant** but thanks anyway.

It actually works in both applications. CC bait and whiff punishing bait. Like I said I’ve been using it the entire beta. What you’re probably testing against is a frame perfect jab, which they’ll probably be able to block the sweep, but you’re still safe. This really isn’t even something to debate since I’ve already done it multiple times. I’m going to assume you’re a newer player/online player which is why you can’t see the practical application.

Yeah sure, I’m a new player in fighting games. That must be why I don’t understand that your “setup” is a ghetto setup that doesn’t work at all.

Except I’m not … And that setup isn’t working at all. Try it yourself if needed. For real this time.

“Mashing jab” usually means “jab as soon as possible”, but for your sake, let’s say it’s a jab 2 frames AFTER the “frame perfect” timing. Still doesn’t work.

Better just stop promoting that CC setup “for people that mash jabs” … like right now … you still have people thinking you messed up words in here, I guess.

But then again, you must be a newer player / online player, that can’t see when a setup works or not …

Could work as a “let’s fish a mistake” gimmick thing, but definitely NOT as a CC setup to punish mashers.

And don’t think I tell you that to annoy you or something (unlike your comment that turned into a “you’re a noob so you must not understand how great my shit is”), it’s just NOT WORKING as you told us it would.

And I actually tested it intensively in training mode.

Actually, using a command backdash cancelled (meaning removing recovery frames, something you can’t do with your sweep !) into a qcf+LP can help you a lot more with normal mashers (especially if you expect non-frame perfect normals).

Though it’s still not a setup that works for cLP mashers, it’s still way quicker, can stuff more things, and it’s safe on block / won’t whiff (unlike sweeps after command backdashes).

It definitely works. In fact it’s the same exact setup you can use with ken in cvs2. Cancelling any normal into his command roll leaves him at disadvantage and punishable (depending on the character) but able to whiff punish/counter hit depending on what button your opponent decides to press. So why does the set up work? Because he can cancel into fireball for the mixup. If they read command roll and try to press a button they get hit by the fb, if you do the command roll and they react late, you get a CH or whiff punish. Laura has a similar wheel of choices.

Edit: found a match of mine showing ken’s options after command roll in cvs2.
http://youtu.be/SWVbpZvGUwY

• I’m red Ken: At around 1:14 I do sweep xx command roll (at disadvantage), c.mk. This punishes his OS just defend c.lp
• my opp is red ken: At around 9:50 he does the same set up, but I block becuse I didn’t want to risk getting hit, but got tagged by the c.mk cancelled to fb
• same match at 10:00, he does sweep xx roll, I try to punish but get tagged by a fb since he delayed it trying to jd a potential sweep or c.mk from me.

This is a similar exchange that Laura nets off of a cancelled back dash.

[Kef]

I kinda see what both of you are saying, but I like the idea of the backdash to bait a counter button (mash) and it’s something I’m planning on experimenting when the game drops. Like @mercureXI said, I haven’t personally tested it, but s.MK xx b.VS probably has a wide enough gap that even if the opponent presses a light normal, you won’t get a sweep as a whiff punish (Sweep is 9 frames).

Now, if we can find in the release version the normal that gives Laura the most blockstun to cancel into the dash (even when punishable), we might be able to come up with a better setup. If the mixup becomes somewhat legit, I like what mentioned @caliagent#3 , and gives me the idea of canceling this normal into qcf.LP instead which looks like a dash, is safe, and can lead into s.LP xx qcf.LP on CH [so, CH qcf.LP>s.LP>qcf.LP].

[Tankard]

Laura strengths: Extremely powerful close range because of her frame data and command grab. Setups from qcf+lp on hit are dangerous.

Laura weaknesses: No way to easily avoid projectiles unlike most of the cast, relatively poor anti air (s. mp is questionable, qcf+fp is good but has startup), poor super.

[mercureXI]

I kinda see what both of you are saying, but I like the idea of the backdash to bait a counter button (mash) and it’s something I’m planning on experimenting when the game drops. Like @mercureXI said, I haven’t personally tested it, but s.MK xx b.VS probably has a wide enough gap that even if the opponent presses a light normal, you won’t get a sweep as a whiff punish (Sweep is 9 frames).

Now, if we can find in the release version the normal that gives Laura the most blockstun to cancel into the dash (even when punishable), we might be able to come up with a better setup. If the mixup becomes somewhat legit, I like what mentioned @caliagent#3 , and gives me the idea of canceling this normal into qcf.LP instead which looks like a dash, is safe, and can lead into s.LP xx qcf.LP on CH [so, CH qcf.LP>s.LP>qcf.LP].

Again and again, I agree on normal > backdash being an ok thing to bait and whiff punish some things.

But he keeps on saying “it definitely works”, when it’s quite obvious, even without going to training mode (I still did, just to be sure), that such a setup won’t CC an opponent that mashes cLP.

And yeah, final version might be different, but for now, we use what we have

Cancelling normal into qcf+LP having no gap, you can’t setup a counterhit.
But like I said above, you can cancel recovery frames from her command backdash into her qcf+LP, that will give a lot more chances to net a counterhit into LP>qcf+LP.

@caliagent#3
Posting videos about Ken on CvS2 won’t change the fact that you can’t CC an opponent that mashes cLP with your sweep after a command dash. Way too slow. Admit it and move on mate.
We agree on the fact that you can fish for a CC, but not on the fact that you will score a CC with a sweep if your opponent mashes. It’s not possible. Period.

[caliagent_3]

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

I kinda see what both of you are saying, but I like the idea of the backdash to bait a counter button (mash) and it’s something I’m planning on experimenting when the game drops. Like @mercureXI said, I haven’t personally tested it, but s.MK xx b.VS probably has a wide enough gap that even if the opponent presses a light normal, you won’t get a sweep as a whiff punish (Sweep is 9 frames).

Now, if we can find in the release version the normal that gives Laura the most blockstun to cancel into the dash (even when punishable), we might be able to come up with a better setup. If the mixup becomes somewhat legit, I like what mentioned @caliagent#3 , and gives me the idea of canceling this normal into qcf.LP instead which looks like a dash, is safe, and can lead into s.LP xx qcf.LP on CH [so, CH qcf.LP>s.LP>qcf.LP].

Do you mean mixing up the qcf+lp cancel off of a bufferable normal? I think that will only work with some of her lights since all if the heavier attacks combo to qcf+lp. You could do it with c.mk xx qcf+mp, but that’s a pretty big risk because of how unsafe it is if blocked.

Along with s.mk I was using, c.mk xx fb (they mash a button they get hit by the fb) and c.mk xx dash forward or back for the mixup. The reason why I prefer s.mk more is because it stops people from jumping out since it hits high and you can fish for the counter hit into super.

As it stands right now, you can do random qcf+lp in footsies and then late crouch tech if blocked. This lets you fish for what you posted, CH qcf+lp combo, and close the distance somewhat. later on down the line this will probably only work when you have meter (EX qcf+lp) since people are going to learn to play against her like 3s makoto.

[Kef]

I’m not a fan of the fireball blockstrings for the most part. That shit is -5 on block and only +0 on hit which is pretty bad reward IMO.

About the normal xx qcf.LP having no gap, it would still need more testing. Depending on the labing, s.LK might end up the best button for the backdash/forward dash/qcf.LP mixup, so I’m pretty sure there is a gap there. Maybe a late cancel on one of the more active moves? s.MP is active like 5 frames or something, so maybe a late cancel can create a big enough gap.

Another thing that kinda worries me is her low-hitting options. IIRC correctly, she can’t really get anything from cr.LK besides another chained cr.LK right? So as far as empty jump mixups go, empty jump > cr.MK>qcf.LP seems like the best/only choice really (without super or VT).

[melflomil]

I thought her fireball was - 3 in block and negative on hit as well?
I found a way to implement her fireball so it won’t be negative on block.

2lp> 5lp> 2mp. The fireball won’t hit them immediately unless it the fierce version. They can’t press a button because they will get counter hit and you can follow with 5hp. They can neutral jump but they will fall on it. They can back jump, forward jump and reversal through it.

If they respect you so much you can even command grab them lol

[AndyG]

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

it comes down to his definition of “setup” being stricter than yours

normal > backdash > CC fish is not going to cc someone who did a frame 1 jab, so it fails to be a “setup” in his eyes

doesn’t change the fact that you’re still gonna CC tons of people with that so I’ll do it til it stops working, which will likely be never

[TZWhiteShadow]

Edit: disregard

[caliagent_3]

I’m not a fan of the fireball blockstrings for the most part. That shit is -5 on block and only +0 on hit which is pretty bad reward IMO.

About the normal xx qcf.LP having no gap, it would still need more testing. Depending on the labing, s.LK might end up the best button for the backdash/forward dash/qcf.LP mixup, so I’m pretty sure there is a gap there. Maybe a late cancel on one of the more active moves? s.MP is active like 5 frames or something, so maybe a late cancel can create a big enough gap.

Another thing that kinda worries me is her low-hitting options. IIRC correctly, she can’t really get anything from cr.LK besides another chained cr.LK right? So as far as empty jump mixups go, empty jump > cr.MK>qcf.LP seems like the best/only choice really (without super or VT).

She gets super off of c.lk which isn’t too shabby since its confirmable. I tend to play for super anyways so it’s a good mix up when fishing for s.mk counter hits.

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

it comes down to his definition of “setup” being stricter than yours

normal > backdash > CC fish is not going to cc someone who did a frame 1 jab, so it fails to be a “setup” in his eyes

doesn’t change the fact that you’re still gonna CC tons of people with that so I’ll do it til it stops working, which will likely be never

That’s been my point the whole time, frame 1 reversal jab will probably be safe, but miss timing it will net a CC, which happened more often than not during the beta. This is why I made the comment of him being new. Most new players are regimented and play by the book, the real world doesn’t always play out by the numbers.

[noosetester]

st.mk xx back v-skill, cr.hk is like a 20 frame gap. With the input buffer it’s like a 10f window to hit the jab without being whiff punishable. I’m pretty sure most characters can just straight up punish the back v-skill.

[AndyG]

I’m not a fan of the fireball blockstrings for the most part. That shit is -5 on block and only +0 on hit which is pretty bad reward IMO.

About the normal xx qcf.LP having no gap, it would still need more testing. Depending on the labing, s.LK might end up the best button for the backdash/forward dash/qcf.LP mixup, so I’m pretty sure there is a gap there. Maybe a late cancel on one of the more active moves? s.MP is active like 5 frames or something, so maybe a late cancel can create a big enough gap.

Another thing that kinda worries me is her low-hitting options. IIRC correctly, she can’t really get anything from cr.LK besides another chained cr.LK right? So as far as empty jump mixups go, empty jump > cr.MK>qcf.LP seems like the best/only choice really (without super or VT).

She gets super off of c.lk which isn’t too shabby since its confirmable. I tend to play for super anyways so it’s a good mix up when fishing for s.mk counter hits.

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

it comes down to his definition of “setup” being stricter than yours

normal > backdash > CC fish is not going to cc someone who did a frame 1 jab, so it fails to be a “setup” in his eyes

doesn’t change the fact that you’re still gonna CC tons of people with that so I’ll do it til it stops working, which will likely be never

That’s been my point the whole time, frame 1 reversal jab will probably be safe, but miss timing it will net a CC, which happened more often than not during the beta. This is why I made the comment of him being new. Most new players are regimented and play by the book, the real world doesn’t always play out by the numbers.

Oh trust me I know, I used to be just like that too til rugal and Steve got me to start playing to win instead of trying to play by the book.

Does anybody have any ideas about laura ex command grab? Not that I can’t think of some times where it would work, but I feel like you might as well just dash -> grab or das -> command grab in those cases.

[mercureXI]

I’m not a fan of the fireball blockstrings for the most part. That shit is -5 on block and only +0 on hit which is pretty bad reward IMO.

About the normal xx qcf.LP having no gap, it would still need more testing. Depending on the labing, s.LK might end up the best button for the backdash/forward dash/qcf.LP mixup, so I’m pretty sure there is a gap there. Maybe a late cancel on one of the more active moves? s.MP is active like 5 frames or something, so maybe a late cancel can create a big enough gap.

Another thing that kinda worries me is her low-hitting options. IIRC correctly, she can’t really get anything from cr.LK besides another chained cr.LK right? So as far as empty jump mixups go, empty jump > cr.MK>qcf.LP seems like the best/only choice really (without super or VT).

She gets super off of c.lk which isn’t too shabby since its confirmable. I tend to play for super anyways so it’s a good mix up when fishing for s.mk counter hits.

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

it comes down to his definition of “setup” being stricter than yours

normal > backdash > CC fish is not going to cc someone who did a frame 1 jab, so it fails to be a “setup” in his eyes

doesn’t change the fact that you’re still gonna CC tons of people with that so I’ll do it til it stops working, which will likely be never

That’s been my point the whole time, frame 1 reversal jab will probably be safe, but miss timing it will net a CC, which happened more often than not during the beta. This is why I made the comment of him being new. Most new players are regimented and play by the book, the real world doesn’t always play out by the numbers.

Already told you that even a “later than frame perfect jab” will not net a CC unless REALLY late (like sleepy late).

YOU told us it was a CC setup against people that mash jabs, NOT ME.

Then when I test it up in training, see it’s not working, your only way out becomes “oh he’s new”, which is not the case considering I play fighting games from arcade SF2 to nowadays.

People that “mash jabs” will either be frame perfect or at worse (for the sake of helping you out) 2-3 frames behind.

Even so, it will never CC.

Easy to let me have the last word when you just are wrong about this.

It’s not about being “stricter” about the definition of a setup, it’s about “what you wrote is wrong”.

You can’t punish cLP mashers with command backdash > sweep from a normal.

That’s all. Face it and stop that nonsense (and a CvS2 Ken video is hardly a proof for a CC setup in SFV with Laura gainst jab mashers … sorry)

[mercureXI]

I’m not a fan of the fireball blockstrings for the most part. That shit is -5 on block and only +0 on hit which is pretty bad reward IMO.

About the normal xx qcf.LP having no gap, it would still need more testing. Depending on the labing, s.LK might end up the best button for the backdash/forward dash/qcf.LP mixup, so I’m pretty sure there is a gap there. Maybe a late cancel on one of the more active moves? s.MP is active like 5 frames or something, so maybe a late cancel can create a big enough gap.

Another thing that kinda worries me is her low-hitting options. IIRC correctly, she can’t really get anything from cr.LK besides another chained cr.LK right? So as far as empty jump mixups go, empty jump > cr.MK>qcf.LP seems like the best/only choice really (without super or VT).

She gets super off of c.lk which isn’t too shabby since its confirmable. I tend to play for super anyways so it’s a good mix up when fishing for s.mk counter hits.

The ken video represents the same exact thing I did with Laura. They press a button, they risk getting CC’d. I’ll let you have the last word. You’re free to deny video evidence all you want lol.

it comes down to his definition of “setup” being stricter than yours

normal > backdash > CC fish is not going to cc someone who did a frame 1 jab, so it fails to be a “setup” in his eyes

doesn’t change the fact that you’re still gonna CC tons of people with that so I’ll do it til it stops working, which will likely be never

That’s been my point the whole time, frame 1 reversal jab will probably be safe, but miss timing it will net a CC, which happened more often than not during the beta. This is why I made the comment of him being new. Most new players are regimented and play by the book, the real world doesn’t always play out by the numbers.

Oh trust me I know, I used to be just like that too til rugal and Steve got me to start playing to win instead of trying to play by the book.

Does anybody have any ideas about laura ex command grab? Not that I can’t think of some times where it would work, but I feel like you might as well just dash -> grab or das -> command grab in those cases.

Laura EX grab being around 20 frames (19?) and impossible to cancel from a normal, makes it quite poor without armor or anything to help it out.

You still can use it after a few things (backthrow ?) if your opponent doesn’t quick rise. If they are passive, you can also use it right after a regular command grab, but all of that is gimmicky as hell.