that’s the thing, with this you don’t have to dash cancel preemptively. You no longer have to guess when you think the opponent is going to advance guard. With this whether he blocks, advance guards, or gets hit doesn’t matter because it is hitconfirmable. So if he only blocks you get free pressure, if he advance guards then you can dash cancel to footdive to negate getting pushed across the screen, and if it hits you confirm it to a combo.
It’s basically a win/win/win. The only downside that I see is where/how to apply it. I’ve never started a string with S. h before lol.
Yeah in theory it sounds good but it I dont really see how you could apply it without an assist any other way. Better off just doing whatever other character does and just stagger up your strings and force throws on people. I’ve been starting to use f+H foot dive more because although it can be wave dashed under the hit box is very big and once you get in is strong at stopping wave dashes and can convert combos as long as you were high enough in the air when you did it. His other air normals are great for air to ground but air to air the only thing he really has unless he’s in XF2/3 is f+H dive.
I just feel it’s kinda unnecessary when he’s already playing Doom on point with cold star assist which gives you free high lows and the ability to dash through block stun just on basic properties of assists vs. advance guards. Once you get the opponent towards the corner that’s all you really need with an assist to keep them there for a long time and his SJ backwards ADDF M high low game is enough to get people off of block eventually.
If he finds something that actually works that would be hot but I can’t even begin to imagine how he could create something similar without an assist.
I’ve practiced some dash cancel jump addf setups on Wesker. Every option I’ve tried gets stuffed by mashing c.L or jump throw.
The only safe option is the f.H footdive.
If they do pushblock things are different. Dash throw, empty low, j.M variations are safe to attempt.
You might still catch them napping if they just block, but they can react to the air dash with mash c.L.
If you want to attempt anything deceptive midscreen you need a lockdown assist. Footdive can set it up.
This is what I’ll be using until something new is found or it gets blown up.
I also want to say I think Doom is like Wesker in the way he can work midscreen but shines in the corner. I used to play him on point but now I’m putting him in spot 2. Abuse his good assists, then kill and DHC into Doom in the corner and then roll through the entire rest of the opponents team with safe entry mixups. Although you do need an assist to make it real dirty. Haggar so far has been able to work as lockdown in the corner, and if they crouch under they are open to throws. So thats cool. If you go for throw and get a blocked hard kick just dash cancel back and do somethng else.
Yeah, there’s a few posts about it in the Doom DHC trick thread. Basically, the reset in damage scaling is caused by the amount of time passing before the next character makes their first hit. In this case, Doom has to do it Air Photon Array as high in the air as possible without being high enough for them to tech. The only character that can make good use of this trick is Dante because even if he hits early and doesn’t get the DHC trick, he can still tack on a ton of extra damage.
I guess, but I tried it out in training mode and it’s pretty easy to throw Doom out of this trap since he air dashes so close to you to keep within distance.
I haven’t tried this yet but I don’t see how it’s possible if you’re in hitstun or blockstun. Isn’t it true blockstring or does it have the same properties as taskmaster’s web swing? But assuming it isn’t (and can be thrown out of) wouldn’t the timing for the air throw have to be specific? Unless you’ve trained against this specific setup and know it’s coming wouldn’t the risk of getting hit and combo-ed (because it’s so time specific) outweigh the reward of getting a throw? (You’d probably be the one getting a throw yourself if your opponent attempts it since the command for footdive is equivalent to a *forward air throw) *Anyways, I’m pretty sure most people wouldn’t anticipate this or know how to counter it so you shouldn’t worry about being thrown out of it. I still see it as a legitimate frame trap since I’ve personally used it in that regard, successfully even.
BTW, why don’t you give Doom/Dante/Haggar (all a type assist) a try since you already play 2 of 3. =o?
To clarify, it’s a ground throw during the startup of the s.:h:. I agree that it is a passable frame trap for now, but I’m just making sure that everyone realizes that this trap can be thrown out of (and easily). The first time a perceptive player gets caught by that frame trap, they should be able to piece together that they have time to initiate a throw.
While I appreciate the suggestion, I probably won’t try out Hagger on my team. I don’t think his assist is nearly as good as most people seem to think and Hulk is my main character.
I still think it’s risky attempting to throw an opponent during the startup of s. :h:. Why? Because whiffing a normal in anticipation of it and getting punished is more likely. The purpose of frame traps is to bait the opponent into whiffing a normal or a throw. If I use it sparingly then it just adds to the metagame. (Maybe once every 3-5 games even, you be the judge of the situation and the opponent’s tendencies) Let’s say we’re playing, you think I’m about to use that frame trap and I know you think I’m about to use it so instead I use cr. :l:s (basic trap) or just sit there and wait in anticipation of this. Anything that adds variety to your game is always a plus. The more unpredictable your overall game is the better off you are. Using this sparingly will give you good results, but like anything, if you’re too predictable with your frame traps they won’t be that effective. (add variety or and time them differently according to your opponent’s habits)
Same thing with Hulk, he has something similiar. Using his s. :h: as a frame trap is also possible except trying to throw him during his start up is incredibly risky so you’re better off just blocking.
I’ll agree with you that it can be used in moderation. After I got off last night, I realized that you were probably going to make this argument about switching up your options. I concede your point.
One thing I did notice while testing. This is only an effective frame trap if you hit while you’re as close to the ground as possible with your Footdive. If you hit them too high and you don’t abort the frame trap, then they can jab out. I tested it in the lab and any 10 frame move can beat it if you hit too high on your dive kick.
yeah, I found this out as well. I guess the best counter to that is to practice your timing and consistency with the hitconfirm (s. :h: dash cancel to footdive). Nonetheless, if the only thing you need to worry about is getting jabbed then it’s not that big of a deal. Nice to know though.
Anyone have more insight on the Wesker matchup? I feel like the only options are to crouch under his gun and pray.
I try to throw air photons and more often than not get thrown by jump teleport. I just feel under attack all the time and that is not a good look.
Its really sad. When I fight good Wolvie/Zero/Mags I feel I have a shot.
His gunshot is so good at controlling that ground horizontal that Doom wants to be in. Superjump is like suicide on land even with fly stuff.
One thing might be to not super but reg jump fly and maneuver with an assist to protect the landing. But what to do while up there? I often do photon dash into a combo on unsuspecting folks. Hasn’t worked on Wesker too often. I am just too open to super jump throws, especially after a Wesker teleports behind the protecting photons.
If you can get him to block a lockdown assist you have your chance. It has proven very difficult though.
Has anyone tried to find the exact height the forward gun will whiff a dashing/Flying Doom? Is that too high to mount any offense? As I write this that is one thing I haven’t played with.
Well since I used to main Wesker I have a bit of an idea of how the matchup works.
The first thing you have to realize is that you are traditional Marvel style character. That means you wanna air dash around, shoot shit, land combos, fly sometimes, shit like that. Wesker is basically a character designed to shut down old Marvel style offense. All of that stuff you like to do with Doom to move around…you dont get to do it against Wesker. He forces you to play his game.
The only way to amount an offense on Wesker is to play out of your element a bit so you can get in range to do things. The main thing you need to do is learn how to stop his standing gun spam. The best way to stop that is to just stop everything you’re doing and sit on the ground and crouch. If he shoots the gun wait till the shot passes just over your head and then immediately do an H plasma beam (you can do a faster beam if you want the a bit more speed but H works and does most damage). If he teleports right after the gun the active frames should hit him out of the teleport and if he tries to shoot another gun again (like most Weskers usually do) he will get hit out of gun shot because the start up on back to back gun shots when they whiff is rather slow. Just get one to whiff and then just get the plasma out on the screen immediately after the whiff and make him take damage. It’s rather unsafe for Wesker to just be shooting standing gun without an assist but most people don’t know how to punish it.
When the Wesker player realizes that you’re not going to let him shoot stand gun anymore without taking damage then they will most likely change to a strategy of dashing forward or randomly teleporting forward while calling an assist. Be prepared for this and remember that both of his forward moving teleports always land in the same space on the screen. Wherever he starts the teleport he will land in an equal spot in the other direction. Be ready for this and c.L punish any unassisted L ground teleports or air throw or dash past any H overhead teleports. Neither teleport obviously has any tracking ability so you can use movement to move away from them after they start up if you’re not sure which one he’s going to do but know he’s going to do one.
This strategy overall works best against the typical shoot gun from 3/4’s to full screen all day gun shot Weskers. For Weskers that are close enough to you where a teleport will most likely cross you up you’ll have to spend meter and cancel into photon array as he teleports behind your plasma beam. If he just keeps shooting the gun and nothing else then obviously you’re good for just throwing the beams by themselves.
Once you can get him to be more wary about shooting stand gun on the ground you can throw out some sporadic hidden missles and start jumping up in the air with air photon shots and air dashing down to start an offensive.
I wanted to second this tactic against Wesker and give a bit more info: You should definitely do Plasma Beam H in this situation. The startup for all three versions of Plasma Beam is 22 frames, so unless you time it poorly and give Wesker a chance to jump over Plasma Beam, it’s always better to just get the extra damage on Plasma Beam H here.
Ah I see so the only difference really is the active frames and the recovery. If Wesker somehow is close enough where he can do an H teleport over your head you can throw out sphere flame super on reaction as a cancel to anti air since that’s 9 frame start up.
In which cases is it better to use molecular shield assist over plasma beam assist?
I’ve been running a lot of Doom/Trish teams since Trish is my best character and she works well with Doom assists, but I’ve noticed that I tend to do better with a Trish anchor rather than a Doom anchor. Level 3 XF Doom may be scary, but I personally find level 3 XF Trish scarier. I want to still run Doom though, as either my first or second character. Which character would you guys suggest for me who has at least decent point abilities, and has an assist that benefits Doom on point? At first I was thinking Magneto or Storm could really benefit from Doom’s beam/rocks assist, but then I realized that while that was true, they didn’t have any assist that benefited Doom. Whirlwind and Disruptor are nice, but unless I’m doing something totally wrong, they aren’t the best assists for Doom’s playstyle.
Both assists are pretty easy to combo off of and can extend combos for different characters. (e.g. Hulk --> Molecular Shield, Wesker --> Plasma Beam)
Beam assist is also primarily used for cross up/mix up setups. (e.g. X-23, Wesker, Zero, Wolverine, Capt. America, Dante, etc.)
[LIST]
[*]Can also be used for guard breaks.
[/LIST] [media=youtube]lHXk7b5pg8E[/media]
Molecular shield has a faster start up and a bigger horizontal hit box so it works as a decent ‘get off me’ assist.
[LIST]
[*]Update: Can also be used for guard breaks.
[/LIST]
I agree that Trish is better at Lvl 3 XF since she’s much more capable of easily opening up people. Doom has a hard time getting in and unless he does the threat of him making a comeback is very low. Even if he does get within range, jumping up in the air and blocking makes his mix ups substantially less effective. Even with 5 bars of meter if you effectively keep Doom out he can’t do much other than annoy you with chip damage. As far as character combinations for Doom on point and/or 2nd… I’ll get back to you on that since there really is too many.