i don’t think my point is hard to comprehend. better characters can do the same or better with less resources or way more with the same resources. at this point in the game, DHC glitch and 0-1 meter 1mil+ combos are becoming more common. comparatively, Doom NEEDS lvl3 (plus positioning to boot) to do the same and make his combos hurt if its not xfactor, a reset or his own DHC reset tag-in. APA does meh damagae, and most DHC’s from it do decent damage but not wtf-damage. Sphere Flame may be the third most damaging lvl1 in the game, but how many DHC’s can even convert that into 800K-900K damage? Hulk, Zero, Storm maybe? Fill me in. like i said, he’s good for beating the mid and low tiers, but the best characters can out achieve him with less resources or do better with the same resources. i’m not saying he’s not good…he’s solid, but definitely not scary.
I understand your point, but I am not quite convinced yet. Maybe I’m reading this part wrong, but are you saying meterless 1mil+ combos are becoming more common? Or are you meaning that there are combos that are a net loss of 0-1 meter that deal more than 1mil damage? If you’re saying the former, could you please provide an example or two - because I don’t know any characters that can do over a million damage with 0 meter and only 1 character that can do over a million with only 1 meter (Hulk corner combo).
If you’re saying the latter, Doom does 900k while netting 1.5 meter gain and even if he has to use a level 3, he only uses roughly .5 meter more than he started with.
I don’t generally have issues with positioning because you can bring them to the corner from so far away, but it is a very valid point.
I’m confused what you mean by “convert [Sphere Flame] into 800k-900k” - I’m saying he doesn’t need a DHC to do over 900k from a combo leading up to Sphere Flame.
That being said - my team is Dante / Hulk / Doom - and both of my other two characters can DHC from Sphere Flame for heavy damage.
That depends how you’re utilizing APA. If you can bring the opponent to the corner, you can end a launch combo with j.:s:, air dash down, do an Air Plasma Beam into Air Photon Array. If you do it this way, Photon Array will deal some decent damage AND you can DHC into a lot more useful Hypers (strick timing for some though). Again, this works particularly well for my team because of Dante’s Devil Trigger.
All in all, Doom’s assist and DHC options are better for my team that the other characters that fight like him, so I’m unlikely to change him without some important new tech being discovered for one of his rivaling characters.
no :nono:
I posted this in the dhc trick thread awhile back but it seems to have gotten swept under the rug by some other discussion. Probably shoulda just posted it here to begin with. Doom (maybe others with supers with similar properties? Haven’t tested anyone else) has a reliable DHC starter if you have a follow up character that can properly OTG. Dante works out really well since he gets a good follow up even if the combo is unglitched. I am very confident now that the glitch occurs when characters fall too far like was initially predicted.
[media=youtube]b3909440zPU"[/media]
The main variables for getting someone to the proper height on air photon array are (if you do the combo in the video) the timing of the adf medium right before the APA and how high they are on a (re)launch. If adf medium is done immediately on a m, h, s relaunch, the character will be too high and air recover before knockdown can occur, so it needs to be delayed slightly. However, if you do adf medium asap after a H, S only relaunch, then it should put them in the right spot to be glitched.
If you do the combo enough you’ll get a good feel eventually to know when you’ve got a character in the right spot to be glitched. Also… yeah character size/weight deviations screw everything up too. That info was for average size/weight characters like Magneto. It’s not an easy reliable starter like most, but it’s better than nothing and if you have someone like Dante who can follow up regardless of glitch or not, then it’s even better.
when i say 0-1 1mil+ damage combos, i mean combos that start off with 0-1 meter, build enough meter during the combo, then result in 1mil+, [media=youtube]-pJp9QoxEvo"[/media], or the myriad of DHC reset combos.
i’d like to see a match reliable sphere flame only combo that does 900K or more.
In regards to your team Liquid, Gamma Crush is the second most damaging lvl1 in the game, so lots of characters can get at least meaningful damage (and in some cases big damage) with a DHC into it. (i.e. Skrull, Zero, Taskmaster, Thor, etc.)…so nothing really unique about Doom/Hulk other than those two being in the top 3 most damaging lvl1’s in the game.
[media=youtube]7nc8AgX0JCA&feature=related"[/media], but it doesn’t allow Dante to build meter during it to tack on Million Dollars, so the meter would have to be ready beforehand. in that case, wouldn’t it just be better to do Doom Time if you’re in the corner?
Honzogonzo, fill me in.
Edit: [media=youtube]b3909440zPU"[/media]scratches head thats weird and relevant to the current discussion.
If Doom starts a combo in the corner it’s an easy ~850-900k with sphere flame with an assist that fills the gap between s.H otg and plasma beam, which is like damn near any assist in the game. Launch, M, foot dive, S xx air dash down loop about 4 times into s.H + assist into plasma beam xx sphere flame is ridiculous damage.
If the combo starts somewhere mid screen but ends in the corner the same can still happen, it’ll just be like one or two m, foot dive, s xx air dash down loops before having to finish the combo and the damage is still pretty similar. Mid screen combo that does not end in the corner or off a throw are where people might live through a hit, but all characters have wierd circumstantial stuff like this, i.e. wolverine that starts a combo off an air hit ground bounce dive kick loses a bit of damage so he isn’t doing a free 700k anymore.
Doom’s damage is great. If he really wants someone dead off of a hit, odds are he can do it if dhcs or xf are available. He just has issues opening people up because of his wierd ground dash, air dash momentum being a bit slower than mag/storm similar to mvc2 and his wierd normals. His full screen super damage potential is weak too which sucks.
Eventually people may figure out ways to make use of his ground normals being cancellable into dash properly to find ways to open people up or set up unblockables with high/low assist. Just seems too awkward this early on when this is the first versus game to ever have the possibility I think. Has anyone made good use of it yet? Kind of hard to set up when you can’t even ground dash into an attack in the first place. The tiger knee fly trick seems really good, just need to get a character in blockstun with a normal better than c.L and get past pushblocks properly.
I’m just getting started really putting together stuff with Doom’s normal to dash cancels. What I’ve learned about this game is that when you get in you can’t really just go in and do some random c.L hit confirm because as long as they’re blocking it’s going to get pushed out. You kinda have to forego typical frame trapping and hit confirming and go in with more of an attitude to combat their advance guard first until you get them to back down from advance guarding. Once you do that then you can go crazy with mix ups and land a combo.
I’ll make a quick video of some stuff you can do. Clockwork has finally started to use it a bit but not quite to the potential you can really do it.
Link to video ---- [media=youtube]1cKKNu–dig[/media]
Should be processed in the next 15 minutes or so.
Part 2 [media=youtube]KBJcKM9WVI0[/media]
Didn’t Seth Killian say that there’s some new tricks with Doom (that no one knows) that he would love to show off to everyone? I wonder if that will attract more people to Doom.
I’m starting to feel like you’re purposely trolling… I have already mentioned that you need less than 1 full meter in order to do Doom’s 1mil+ damage combo.
The 900k+ Sphere Flame combo is easier than any of the high level Magneto combos. I’ll be at UFGT playing my team, so I’ll try to show you what I’m talking about then.
Right… I was actually conceding that my view on Doom’s DHC options were biased when I mentioned Hulk and Dante’s ability to DHC from Sphere Flame. The point was the fact that you could start with 0 meter and do a 900k+ damage combo and still have almost 1.5 meter left over.
Yes and no. If Doom Time will kill the character and not be ridiculous overkill - then Doom Time is better to do since it reduces the risk of dropping the combo. However, depending on your third team member and which Doom assist you’re using - you can deal much more damage by Devil Triggering - and you might even save some meter in the end if your opponent dies before you get to Million Dollars. Other advantages of Devil Triggering include healing all three of your characters’ red health while doing Dante’s part of the combo and demoralizing your opponent (people get frustrated when they don’t get to play for 20 or 30 seconds straight…
Yeah, I might have to look into this one. I don’t know though b/c I have a serious hatred for DHC glitch. Additionally, Dante is my point character with Doom as anchor - so even if I swap Doom in, Dante usually isn’t the next character in line.
That’s what I heard but who knows if he’ll actually ever show it. Anything new for Doom is good at this point.
I also added some annotations in the videos so people can understand specifically what is going on in the different parts.
BTW Liquid I hope you got some serious trickies when hitting people with Doom. Dont wanna see you on stream getting in and then getting blocked and push guarded out. LOL. I’ma have to go in the lab with that huge damage combo you put together. With Doom in the back I could easily just turn on XF and do something stupid easy but that will help if the XF runs out.
I’ll try not to disappoint. I like Doom in the back because I’m one of the few players that commonly uses X-factor levels 1 and 2 (if I had to guess, I’d say that I use level 1 at least as often as level 3). In casuals against the other players in my area and online, I’ve reverse OCV’d in only 3 openings without X-factor. Doom is a beast and I can’t believe more people don’t play him.
what are the combos? notations are good enough
Sphere Flame Combo (carries opponent about 50% of the stage):
c.:l:, c.
, c.:h:, :s:, Buktooth loop (j., j.:f::h:, addf, j., c., c:h:, :s:), Buktooth loop (if you notice that the opponent is too high to land the c. and c:h:, you can use s.:f::h: to save the combo), j., j.:f::h:, :s:, add, j.:h: (whiffs), s.:h:, :s:, j., j., j.:f::h:, :s:, j.:h: (whiffs, optional), :a1:/:a2:, :h:, :qcf::h:, :dp::atk::atk:
The Doom Time combo is the same, except you can’t Plasma Beam before the Hyper and fewer assists are compatible. Unlike the Sphere Flame combo, it doesn’t actually require the assist to connect the Doom Time.
*Special notes regarding both combos:
Some people have trouble doing Buktooth loops. The closer to the corner you are, the fewer of them you need to do. If your opponent starts in the corner, you can do 4 corner loops. Fortunately, this BnB is customizable in that you can do up to 3 Buktooth loops (3rd one is much tighter timing) to carry your opponent to the corner. For each Buktooth loop you do, you have to reduce the number of corner loops you do by 1. Buktooth does a tiny bit less damage and seems to build a tiny bit more meter, but given that the corner loop can be done by anyone who has spent at least 10 minutes in practice mode, I’d stick with that one.
**Note number two:
I have mentioned before that the Sphere Flame combo can deal more than 900k damage - this is true, but it depends on what you open with and how many Buktooth loops you’re doing. Obviously if you open with a foot dive in the corner, it does more damage than if you open with c.:l: and do three reps of Buktooth before reaching the corner.
[media=youtube]faopQfJd4tA[/media]
Aliounes video gave me the idea to create spacing for Doom’s hyper to whiff. Thanks:D
I love Doom…lol
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/228603_1979861903489_1451401705_2232163_4365636_n.jpg
My opinions about Doom:
How often do people here in the Doom forum use his j.L? I have to say it was definitely a good adition for my Doom’s offence as you can actually (super) tri-jump with it. It even hits behind him for cross ups!
It’s really easy to shut down inexperienced Dooms’ offence. He has a hard time hitting people out of the air and pushblocking hurts him, even with dash-cancelling. I’ve had moments of pure trolling with Doom mirror matches where I would just sit there blocking and they didn’t know how to get in. For that reason, I believe the big thing of Doom’s arsenal that has to be utilized is his throws. Like how I mentioned, from his pseudo tri-jump, or in a defensive situation.
Another thing I see happening is what I believe is frame traps. I don’t do c.:l:, c., c.:h:, but just c.:l:, c.:h:. On block, it sometimes misses the blockstring timing and I often catch people with the c.:h:. Playing against other Dooms I also realized how often I would get hit trying to jump out after blocking a jump in attack without pushblock.
Yeah the main thing I’m working on with Doom ATM is air to air options. The game is generally more ground based than Marvel 2 but people are still regularly fighting from at least a regular jump aerial position and most of what Doom has that I’ve found is scary so far is only good if they’re like crouch or stand blocking. If Wesker is regular jumping mashing on S or Taskmaster is sitting on air M + arrow super the approach is definitely a bit harder. Magneto players tend to deal with stuff like that like you said by air throwing regularly since it’s one frame and most character’s air throws have pretty good range.
If Doom actually got damage off his air forward throw outside of the corner it would make it easier to blow up attempts to do random shit in the air with OS forward throw. You really should be OS forward throwing a lot with Doom any way when they’re in the air it’s just the reward you get for it is just pushing them towards the corner. Which is still not bad because if you hit them again they’re surely in range to land buktooth loop to 1 million damage corner combo. You basically generally want to get people towards the corner with Doom any way because his mix up gets a lot stronger when they’re close to the corner.
I guess I could try messing around with some air back throw OS stuff but unlike the forward air throw OS you end up dashing backwards. Which means if you’re trying to get in while stopping someone’s attempt to jump around with random normals you can’t really auto pilot air dash forward like Magneto. At best you’ll be getting an OS air forward throw most of the time and maybe sometimes you can start to move in with OS air forward throw and then jump forward at them and do an OS back throw after you scare them with the OS air forward.
Doom is a lot like Dorm in that he mostly has a vulnerable spot above his head when he’s being pressured which is why characters like Wesker can be really annoying for Doom. His gun shoots faster than any of your projectiles, you can’t wave dash under it and it blows you your tri jump/air dashing ability. Then on top of having a hard time moving against him he can just H teleport on top of your head and put you into a 4 way mix up on a a dime. That’s why I prefer fighting Wesker with X23 or Wesker himself because they both have quick low profile wave dashes that get you in under the gun and allow you to hit him a lot of the time before he even teleports. He can call an assist to keep it safe but at least the chances of you getting mixed up and hit are minimized.
Doom does have a few moves that attack above his head like hidden missles, sphere flame, S and hard kick (ground f+H) but they’re all moves you have to throw out on anticipation rather than on reaction. The only one that you can come close to doing on reaction to regular jump height attacks is S (which you can do against obvious
Wolverine dive kicks from a range). Hidden missles you’re best off just putting 2 on the screen often as you’re maneuvering so people can’t just go hopping in on your dead spot and that’s probably the general point of the move but since you have to commit to it you have to stop your offense to throw them out. Which Wesker or Wolverine will be glad to wave dash in on you during that time. Sphere flame is probably the best thing to use on reaction and you can bait people into it by throwing plasma beams and if you see them press a button in the air you can cancel into sphere flame. It’s risky to use the sphere flame by itself of course because you can’t do anything but safe DHC into another character or turn on XF to stay safe from getting grabbed out of the follow up.
Air to air the best options you have seem to be heavy gun (j.H) from a distance, f+H foot dive and j.L. j.H if you end up landing it close enough can convert to combos off c.M but you have to be close enough and you can get in a lot of trouble throwing it out too close since it’s another projectile based normal he has that you can’t cancel. It’s good for air to air or a distance based anti air. f+H foot dive has a lot of potential because you dont have to just foot dive (which is something a lot of people still do). You can cancel f+H foot dive into just about anything else you can do in the air that’s a special or super move. Like you can f+H dive to start trying to get in and then cancel it into air plasma beam, air photon shot, fly mode, any type of AD, air photon array etc. None of this stuff allows you to combo air to ground like Wolverine or Dante or anything but it’s there to use. j.L I haven’t messed around with much either but I imagine the priority and speed is solid.
**In general you’ll most likely have to fish for air back throws or OS forward throws to do anything remotely threatning to people jumping around in the air. ** Maybe there’s some other stuff I’m not thinking of but it’s true you can’t just throw a sword around or dive kick like wolvie and expect to get huge damage on air to air hits and play the air game like a dumbass and get shit. Magneto can just OS air throw which converts into air M from too far away which both can easily convert to combos due to the nice upward hit box on his air M. Doom’s air M is great for crashing down on people but I haven’t found it particularly awesome for anti air. Air to air it isn’t bad if you air dash forward but you can’t really air dash down after jumping with air M and expect to land much.
Actually now that I’ve been messing around I’ve found jump forward air M, air dash M, land s.L S launch seems to be good for dealing with air to air. It seems to build up the hit stun deteriation pretty hard afterwards but you can do like a sphere flame juggle after landing and stuff.
I also just found out that Spencers hyper to start the DHC glitch will also have the opponents character at a distance(sometimes) right before the last hit, so Doom can DHC later in the hyper as well. Though I can’t do it consistently.
You can also do Weskers command grab to start the DHC glitch for Dr.Doom. It must be done mid screen or just not close to the edge, you become a little far spaced, but one nj ADDF st.m>S works great for the OTG. [media=youtube]MK8TKd-KtmM[/media]
Hmmm wow I didn’t even think of using Wesker to start the glitch. Since I have Wesker 2nd any way that’s probably not a terrible idea in some situations.