Lab Findings

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

Lol and yet you still top me in BP/PP :razz:

I definitely think Fei’s footsies serves as a solid compliment to his Rekkas and vice versa. Even though you may not be able to cancel from cr.MK/MP/HP directly into Rekkas, you get that nice mix of offensive and defensive poking with varying ranges to work with. This is contrast to someone like Ryu who, although has the most godly cr.MK in the world, has a pretty predictable footsies range to play around in. You can just tell when he’ll throw it out and where it’ll hit/whiff–timing and interception really becomes the main reason why it scores so much damage for him. Of course, that’s not to play it down! Jeez if Fei had a 4-frame cr.MK xx Rekkas, he’d be pretty godlike himself.

62

cr.LP/cl.MP/cl.HP xx HK CW Cross-up corner combos

What it is: Canceling from a normal into HK CW for…

  1. Frame trapping.
  2. Cross-up combos.
  3. Anti-throw teching.

Where you can use it: In the corner, with the opponent’s back pressed to it or with a slight gap before the wall (situation dependent on the character, but most characters can be hit in both situations).

Why you’ll use it:

– It’s safe in many situations since HKCW is +0 on block.
– Gives you an option select against many scenarios INCLUDING MASHED REVERSAL DPs WHICH IT CAN BEAT CLEAN. Some restrictions apply.
– It’s essentially freebie damage if the opponent is trying to block or throw tech.
– You can combo into cr.LP/cl.HP xx Special from a hit, giving it a Tenshin-esque appeal.
– It will beat certain offensive tactics (as mentioned above).
– Crosses up, giving you a secret weapon against uber-turtles that leaves you less open than naked Tenshin and will not require EX to make worthwhile.

Risks:

– Opponent blocks the X-up and gets out of the corner.
– You drop your combo following it and the opponent gets out of the corner.
– The opponent has a normal/special which can stuff this on reversal and gets out of the corner.
– Unlucky timing (but lucky for your opponent).
– Mashed Ultra.
– You use cl.MP and it hits while your opponent is crouching, causing your opponent’s stun animation to force a whiff… Untested property. Please check this, otherwise stick to cr.LP (easiest to sneak in) or cl.HP (possible force stand with less whiff potential since the opponent will not be in stun when the HK CW begins its hits).

Full list of comboable situations:
Green Shows characters this crosses up on reliably if the opponent is in the corner or a little off from it (3-4 small squares in training).
Blue Shows characters this crosses up on if there is a space between the wall and the opponent for Fei to squeeze into. May hit in front and cross over to the other side if opponent is at wall.
Orange Shows characters this will only hit/cross-up on in one reliable situation.
Red Shows characters this does not work on reliably.

**Akuma
C. Viper
Dan
Dee Jay
Dhalsim
Fei (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall. If standing, hits X-up but stays on same side)
Ken
Ryu
M. Bison
Makoto
Rose
T.Hawk
Zangief
**

**Cody
Gen
Guy
Vega
Rufus

**
**El Fuerte (corner X-up only)
Guile (corner X-up only)
Hakan (corner X-up only)
Seth (corner X-up only)

Adon (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
Blanka (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
Cammy (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
Chun (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
E. Honda (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
Sagat (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
Sakura (X-up with a gap b/w opponent and wall)
**

Abel
Balrog
Gouken

[edit] Ugh, typed this long paragraph on beating the SRK and testing data only to lose it due to pressing ctrl+c instead of ctrl+v on this message text… In a nutshell, it was tested on crouch blocking opponents only. Against standing opponents, use cl.MP as it’s un-interruptible once it has been canceled into HK CW. Messiah Kick is one move that will hit Fei once but doesn’t give Rufus any real advantage. cl.MP xx HK CW is the clear winner if you’re gambling to avoid an attack, but cr.LP has some situations and cl.HP gives the force-stand property which can work in your favor even though it won’t combo. This property works because Fei moves to the backside of the opponent while the opponent is still in block stun. Obviously this movement is best shielded by a high-stun move like cl.MP, but if cl.MP hits… That needs testing.

Could use a hand with testing this one–there’s a lot more to run through than just comboability like above.

[edit2] Here was the original thread on it started by Pasqual, although I did my own testing for this one:

http://shoryuken.com/f273/cw-crossups-196642/

He provides mainly X-up situations from mid-screen as opposed to the corner, which is different from what I’m prescribing (mine is a simpler rendition, updated for SSF4 hitboxes). Mine is also combo-oriented, made for maximum damage potential in mind. The good thing about Pasqual’s is that it details standing cross-up situations and cross-ups with LK/MK CW as well which I haven’t tested yet (and am not going to). [/edit2]

63

THis is the best information I’ve read for Fei Long in a long time. Thanks man. I can’t believe I never actually took this to the training room to see what it worked on. I just do it without knowing for sure it it’ll work. Now I’ll do it when I know it does. Great Work nosone.

64

thnx for the info nosone …this was definitely a grey area for me as i usually just HK Chicken wing anyway when an opponent has their back to the wall crouching as i just assume that it is going to cross them up but at least now i will know each situation where i can use it and i where i can’t… very useful .

65

No problem guys.

Just an FYI, this works on Guile wonderfully as his Flash Kick has a ton of horizontal range on it and will usually whiff, giving Fei the landing advantage. The only way for him to get out really is to defend this if he sees it. Do note that an oddly timed cr.LP can beat this as you swing around to your opponent’s backside, but the timing needs to be pretty spot on (if they whiff, the hit is basically guaranteed as they’ll be in recovery for the cr.LP).

Crouch teching loses totally as the hitbox for cr.LK is often too low to hit the CW as it comes down on the opponent and Fei will already be airborne on the first frame the opponent can hit on. If they mash and miss, they’ll also be in recovery of the cr.LK when the CW hits. In addition, cr.LK typically doesn’t shift the hitbox forward as much as cr.LP for characters like Fei, Guile, Ryu, and a few others, making cr.LK OS a bad response to this in general.

66

Great Work, Nosone. I was trying this out today and it’s pretty legit. I imagine Fei Longs will start incoporating this- I know I will.

67

[media=youtube]lQcWTj_dOGY&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - SSF4 - The Best of Tokido [Akuma[/media]

Not a Fei video, but watch at 0:34. Tokido does a cr.MK to combo against Guy’s Bushin flip. Translates to cr.MK xx Super for Fei? How about cr.LKs, do those go low enough that we can dodge and combo from them? I’m intrigued.

68

Nope c.lk doesnt lower your hitbox alot so it doesnt work. On the other hand you can c.mk him or sweep him.

69

Late Cancelling

[media=youtube]MHu13BpWq8Q[/media]

Technically, you could meaty and on hit or block the Tenshin will land if performed right.

70

I decided to go to the lab on Fei against Boxer and tho this will probably be obsolete in the coming Arcade Patch. I might as well share.

In the Boxer matchup he has a lot of rushpunches that are exactly -5 which means its punishable with reversal super. However not matter how many times I tried and what versions I used it will not hit. However crouch forward WILL hit so I check Feis Super Hitbox and he has 2 active frame on his first punch so that might explain it. He may be hitting Boxer with the 2nd active frame instead of the 1st. This means when Boxer does-
MK Dash Upper(The uppercut that always whiffs on crouchers including Fei)= -5
LK Dash Low Smash(Torpedo)=-5
LP Dash Low Smash(His only overhead)=-5
Level 2 Turn punch=-5
and you reversal super it won’t hit.
Solutions? easy
Use Crouching mp/mk into super. It does more damage anyways and you should be doing this in the first place.
Without Super you can just punish accordingly like c.lp Rekka or cl.hp rekka if your close enough.
Reversal
EX Flamekick works on all but torpedo. Your to far so MK Flamekick works.

Now don’t let that him RushPunch you for free. Punish him hard for it.

71

I’m pretty sure all decent Boxers will space his rush punches so that only the tip of his glove hits you. That would make him too far and would already recover before anything you throw out anything that can punish him.

72

cr.MP link out of HK CW

I was fooling around with this in the lab and I figured that there really is no reason to avoid using it.

What it is

Linking HK CW> cr.MP> cr.LP xx Rekkas out of instead of using cl.HP xx Rekkas

Why you’ll use it

The range at which you use cl.HP has a certain limit to it. Surprisingly this limit is the perfect boundary for you to hit cr.MP and link it to cr.LP immediately after. That said anytime you can go for the cl.HP link, you should be able to pull the cr.MP link as well. Any range beyond that, you should use cr.LP directly.

The damage at maximum from this is 329, while the HP link is 369. Straight cr.LP xx Rekkas is 286. From this, it’s roughly a 40 damage increase per level of risk you’re willing to take, and I do mean to say that the risk ascends with damage. Here’s why:

Suppose you hit-confirm 3 hits of HK CW. You’re now in a position to do a Rekka combo on the opponent if you can hit that one crucial link. Your choices are cl.HP, cr.MP> cr.LP, or cr.LP. The reward is all the same, save for damage differences. Here are the worst case scenarios…

cl.HP: Miss the link, hit HP Rekka for the first one and then stop. Now you’re punished by mashed Tiger Uppercut or cr.MK Hadouken.

cr.MP: Miss the link, you’re now at a +2 frame advantage, with no Rekka coming out. OR, you hit the link and then mess up the following 2-frame link. HP Rekka comes out and you’re punished.

cr.LP: Miss the link, hit HP Rekka for the cancel–punished.

Between the three obviously, cr.LP is easiest to hit, so the risk-reward equation balances out there. For cl.HP, however, the risk is much greater if you miss the link than if you missed the cr.MP. Since cr.MP can’t be canceled directly and causes momentary blockstun, you can halt your next motions if you feel the opponent is about to attack you.

Thanks to the spacing provided by pulling 2 normals instead of one, HP Rekkas should also be slightly safer to pull if you do mess up the second link, which is also a plus. Of course, LP Rekka would be safest still.

cr.MP on hit also gives +5. This is obviously an excellent frame advantage for linking into Super, especially since the two normals that you must hit following the CW are crouching (2-in-1 motions are possible here).

Lastly, the +2 on cr.MP makes for a nice frame trap in the case that you’re facing a character like Chun-Li who likes to fish for cr.LK xx Lightning Legs whenever possible.

[edit] Super cancel from cr.MP> cr.LP is 480 damage, cr.MP> cr.MP xx Super is 516, cl.HP gives you 536. The damage difference at maximum here is 56 now, still not very significant considering you’d waste your whole Super if you missed the cl.HP link and canceled directly.

Ask yourself these questions

Is an additional 40 damage worth putting myself at risk of missing a 1-frame link and directly canceling that into an unsafe move?

*Can I hit a one frame link?

Can I hit a 2-frame link?

Am I able to tell the difference between close range and far range in the case of cl.HP? (cr.MP will save your ass there if you expect cl.HP but far HP comes out instead)*

If you think that you have consistency with this, I suggest that you use it in the future. 40 damage isn’t very much when you weigh it against safety, an additional frame trap, and a 2-frame Super hit-confirm IMO. Use at your own discretion.

73

I’ve been playing with these too recently, seeing as I’ve finally got around to learning to plink the CW > cl.HP.

Some of the hit confirms I’ve looked at are:

HK CW > cr.LK, st.LP, cr.MP xx Super
2 frame link and tonnes of time to hit confirm it, does about 450.

HK CW > st.LP, cr.MP xx Super
Almost the reverse of your cr.MP, cr.LP xx Super, this time it’s a 2 framer again, but you’ve gotta be on your toes and pretty focussed to hit confirm with it. Does about 485 because of the st.LP instead of the cr.LP.

HK CW > cr.MP, cr.MP xx Super
You put this one down, and though the initial 1 framer is tough to hit, you’ve got tonnes of time to confirm the super off the second cr.MP, so if you miss the link, and they’re not mashing DP, you’re safe to move back onto your pressure game.

HK CW > cl.HP xx Super
Though it’s really risky, for me there are times when I just kinda know I’m going to hit the link, you know? It’s a huge confidence boost for you, great damage and a bit of a demoralizer for the opponent. On the other hand, you could miss it, and it’s going to cost you a great deal in meter and potential damage to them, and your life bar’s gonna hurt. I use it when I’m running away with the victory, or when I’m being steamrolled to the point where it’s do or die.

I hit it yesterday against a great Irish Akuma who was on the way to perfecting me (I was down to about 25%) when he ate my CW, it took so much life and lead to the win. On the flip side, I missed it against a Rog and ate a nearly full meter ultra which made the match even, and I think I lost. The only way to use this combo is with confidence and a whole lotta balls.

Anyway, I’ve not really added too much here, but I though it was worth noting that the first two combos I mentioned are really reliable…

Edit: I’m sure everyone knows uses these combos, and this one, but it’s good to re-assess these things and their importance:

Just to stretch it a little further, HK CW from crossup range or a little further can lead to cr.LP/cr.LK xx Super whether it crossed them up or not, which would be really good if they’re down to about 40% health, but it’s damn hard to execute. If you’re at max range for the cr.LP/cr.LK you have to make sure not to hit LP Super or they’ll be pushed out of range, MP wont.

Though a safer game could be played than trying difficult to execute combos, if you can work them into your game and hit them most of the time, your damage output really changes the dynamics of the round, and the risk that your oppenents are taking in terms of spacing and zoning. I’ve found myself winning a lot more games from hopeless situations by improving the CW > cl.HP link alone. High damage combos that come from small things like a crossup CW (for what 60 damage?) soon turn into 300-400 damage, which I’m beginning to find so crucial.

Boxer combos to ultra with no meter from any opening you give, Gouken can throw you after a small mistake, tonnes of characters have great anti-air ultras that can punish one out of place jump… As that list goes on, I feel more and more like maximising damage is very important to Fei’s game against great players; That training room has never needed to be used more by the general Fei Long population.

74

Good read, might have to try this out a bit, I normally do c.hp link and if my timing is off that day i just do the d.lk/d.lp link instead.

75

True that max damage is a life-saver, but if we play the statistics game, the mistiming of cl.HP can be a liability roughly 20% of the time (unless you’re Mago and can hit the link 100%). As you’ve noted above, missing the link itself is a HUGE liability when people can easily mash DP or headbutt in between.

That said, using cl.HP xx Rekkas directly not only puts you in that particular risky situation, but it also presents a second risky situation when the Rekka is blocked. That’s 2 chances for your opponent to hit you hard in a single link> cancel; if they don’t mash the DP, they can cr.MP xx Something to start crazy combos.

I guess the point I’m getting at is, there should be some balance between getting big damage and also staying safe if you make a technical flub. While my proposed link may not be the biggest damage dealer, losing the 40 damage for Rekkas and the maximum of 56 damage (20 minimum) for Super shouldn’t be regarded as a huge difference when you consider you’ll probably lose less health staying safe throughout the match. That is, of course, assuming that you’re not perfect with cl.HP to begin with. If you can hit cl.HP all the time or at least 90% of the time, go for it. Around 80%, that’s kinda shaky ground.

As an aside, I made a slight error in calculation, but it works in favor of the combo. The link from cr.MP> cr.LP is 3-frames, just like the normal BnB. Only the cr.MP> cr.MP link is a 2-framer.

76

I have been working on this. The only issue is spacing. But I am getting used to it.

77

Played a couple of games yesterday, tried out the hk.cw > d.mp > d.lp against an abel, the d.lp kept whiffing…going to try some training mode testing to see if it’s character specific combos.

78

I’m not sure I get the grasp about it. CW HK -> crMP is a 1 frame link aswell, so if you’re not good with 1 frame links you should go directly for crLK or crLP followup. Or get good with the 1 frame link and use the godly HP link. I started to land it VERY consistently (offline) paying full attention to the rythm of the hits and not to the animation.
And just BTW, I tried what you mentioned on Sakura and it doesn’t seem to work for me.

79

isnt anything after HK CW a 1 framer?

80

HP - one frame
cr.LP - two frame

Those are the only two I ever use so I don’t know about anything else.