This is true and Fei is not the only one that has this problem. Guile’s s.MP kara throw is like this too and there may be others. It is almost as if the attacking hitbox can never overlap the defender’s throwable hit box.
Edit: Just noticed nevillebamshew post with the explanation for this, makes sense, thanks.
Oh snap, thanks for the clarifications. I was messing around in training, noticed it a few times and rushed to post here. Was expecting to maybe pinpoint some situations where it would be useful, but that won’t be the case it seems.
damn, thats right. forgot that close rh would go active when in range
Karathrow Max Range Setups
[media=youtube]vg6fM_HnahU[/media]
Tenshin Max Range Setups
[media=youtube]Pzyn8p3bXuc[/media]
Just to show the ranges.
hmmmm… interesting. makes me want to try to kara the normal tenshin instead of burning meter, and figure out where max range is on a kara ex tenshin.
to the lab-mobile!
That max range kara-throw setup might be interesting with the OS-Gekkirinken, since you get a cl.:lk: on hit or block, which gives no real follow-up (except for a 1-frame link into :lp:), the kara-throw seems a viable option to me.
Again, thanks for the efforts. I really need to apply tenshin more into my game.
What do the inputs look like?
Can some ppl around test close HP xx lp rekkas x1, ex tenshin? worked very well the few times I tested it, scoring a nice 400 damage reset; as all tenshin setup, it will loose to mashers, but it comes REALLY fast! thanks for anyone providing some backup so I could add it to the combo thread as a viable tenshin setup
It works. I posted this on NeoEmpire a few weeks back, about halfway down the page - http://neoempire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8650&page=2
Think it only doesn’t work on Abel, Adon and Balrog that have their feet towards the back of their neutral hitbox. However if I remember from when I was testing stuff to work out the new range on EX Tenshin, if they crouch or crouch block, it will land.
Execution tip for BnBs
Fei Long’s main hit-confirmable BnB that works on everyone.
cr.short > cr.jab xx Rekkakens.
There’s a very, very easy way to get the timing down on this, and it doesn’t even involve playing Super SFIV. The exact link timing (meaning that instead of cr.short and cr.jab chaining, it links) is the exact same timing of performing cr.short > cr.jab xx Rekkakens in ST and HD Remix. Probably sounds daft but it’s made me hit that link in SSFIV with 99.9% accuracy now. So, if you can, get on ST and drill it in training mode because the muscle memory carries over exactly.
This is easier to spot where you’re going wrong also, because if you get the timing wrong on any part in ST/HD, none of it combos or the link doesn’t come out/combo. In Super, you end up just chaining into a jab and getting no cancel if you’re off, which I find harder to diagnose the execution fault.
Short Range Backdash OS
Some may have seen Alioune do this in one of his videos. It’s an OS from a meaty cr.short to beat slow starting reversals and short backdashes:
cr.short > cr.short ~ Short Flame kick
It takes advantage of the input shortcuts. You do the cr.short from downback, then down, then downback cr.short. You time it so that if it hits then it looks like a slow chain and you can blockstring out or finish a combo into Rekkaken. If they backdash, the cr.short whiffs and you catch them with a Flame Kick.
The OS isn’t limited to short range backdashes, like Gouken or Honda, as it can catch characters with comparitively long range backdashes, like Ryu. I’ll add a full list once I’ve tested on all.
Another OS for backdashes that can lead to a BnB is:
cr.short > cl.short ~ Short Chickenwing
This catches all backdashes, but doesn’t lead to any further damage unlike the Flame Kick one. The BnB is also slightly trickier as you have to one frame link from the cl.short into a cr.jab xx Rekkaken. Another variation is:
cr.short > cl.jab ~ Jab Rekkaken
…but this doesn’t work on everyone. The cl.jab whiffs on some of the cast if they crouch block on wakeup. The characters it works on isn’t limited to large characters either, just need to know who cl.jab hits on (hits characters like Cody and Guy, for example).
Countering Bushin Senpukyaku on wakeup
Guy can get out of a meaty cr.short by using a wakeup LK or MK Tatsu if Fei Long’s meaty isn’t timed to hit on the later frames, which makes it something to consider even when Guy has no meter on knockdown. However, if you do:
Meaty cr.jab > cr.jab ~ cr.fierce
…from pointblank, Guy’s Tatsu gets stuffed grounded and leads to a BnB. The input for this would be:
d LP MP HP
d LP
Now, you can just do Jab and Fierce together to get the OS cr.fierce but it’s easier on the fingers to just hit all three and doesn’t make a difference really. The cr.fierce will catch his backdash if the meaty is timed to hit on it’s last frame. This is harder than doing a meaty cr.short as it has one less active frame, but better for catching Guy’s backdash as it has one frame less recovery.
Far Standing Jab hit-confirm
Cammy has a very useful hit-confirm from a far standing normal, which can beat out a lot of high priority ground normals and specials and only hit if they are moving forward.
Although not as useful, Fei Long can do the same thing with:
St.jab ~ Strong/Fierce Rekkaken
St.jab ~ Jab Rekkaken (negative edge)
Can be used against Balrog’s dash straights from the right range, to name one way. It’s also quite useful against Dhalsim’s far normals, and can punish his pokes from half screen.
Countering Rose’s df+Forward Slide
Probably common sense to a lot of players.
The slide is quite useful at shutting down Rekkas, setting up counter hits and generally messing up Fei Long’s ground spacing. There are many ways to counter this, and all are fairly safe from retaliation. It’s all about the spacing so I’ll explain the exact spacing where this works best.
A max range Fierce Rekkaken, followed by a slightly delayed Jab Rekkaken on hit or block sets up the exact range. This set up is relatively safe from many of Rose’s Punishes due to the pushback. If spaced right, Rose HAS to do a cr.strong xx EX Soul Spiral with reversal timing, ie, they have a 1-frame leniency, in order to punish it. If it’s not reversal timed, Fei Long can block the spiral and punish right back after blocking or even reversal out of it. If not retaliated from or if they are off, Fei Long can do:
[LIST]
[]Overhead
[]Walk back > st.fierce
[]Walk back > cr.strong (potential hit-confirm into Rekkashinken)
[]St.short
[/LIST]
Overhead cleanly beats the slide everytime, and is only punishable by Focus Attack if read and a cr.jab if blocked. Walk back st.fierce will also cleanly beat the slide for a nice 120 damage, as does cr.strong which can be buffered with Super in anticipation of the slide. Rose’s other useful normals from this range (st.roundhouse, st.forward, Soul Piede) are all either too slow and can be blocked on reaction or lose cleanly to st.fierce. Another all purpose counterpoke from this range is st.short, as this stuffs a slide cleanly.
The idea is to hover just outside Rose’s cr.strong range and pester her with counterpokes. It’ll decrease her options, and Rose can’t afford to be throwing out Soul Spirals - it’s a guaranteed ticket to the corner for her.
Now in terms of setting up the Rekkas to set up the spacing for the counterpokes, if you land a cl.fierce xx MK Flame Kick, you can do a meaty Fierce Rekka into the delayed Jab Rekka from the position you’re left at after the Flame Kick. If she backdashes the meaty Rekka, you can easily confirm that she is backdashing and do another Fierce Rekka to chase because of the delay you’re leaving for the initial setup.
Kara EX Rekkaken
You can extend the range of his EX Rekkaken by kara’ing from a Fierce Rekkaken into an EX Rekkaken. It adds (roughly) 0.3 extra range to the EX Rekkaken, which is about three small squares on the training grid.
Input should look like this:
MP HP
6HP
3
2
Another way of kara’ing it is with st.roundhouse. Doesn’t add as much range, but it means that you can kara Jab Rekka and Strong Rekka. You can’t do it with Fierce Rekka because you put the stick in neutral after the motion and then hit the kara inputs. If done with Fierce, you get a taunt, but thinking about it now you could just turn the taunt off. Kara’ing with st.roundhouse gives roughly two small squares extra range.
Turn the taunt off though and it will work. With an opponent in the corner, you can do Kara Jab Rekka from halfscreen. Input looks like this:
LP HK
HK
6
3
2
Kara EX Flame Kick
Still not entirely sure about this one or even if my numbers are right, but seeing as a kara uses the first startup frame of the move you are using to kara with, it’s possible that you could use first invulnerable frame of a normal Flame Kick and kara into an EX Flame Kick. Technically, this would make the overall startup 6 frames instead of 5, but giving 7 invulnerable frames instead of 6.
I might be wrong though.
nice finds on the kara rekka there, altho im not so sure a kara flamekick would b useful at all, extra invul frames at startups not important really, the over lapping invulnerable frames into hit frames are the ones that important, kara’ing the FK would just make it slower than it already is.
More invincibility, less trades on awkward jump-ins.
May be so, but wouldn’t the additional invincibility be artificial? By delaying the attack I mean. If so, you could manually delay a flame kick yourself to achieve the same effect. Of course, a 1-frame delay is impossible to do purposely, but likewise, knowing when you needed that 6-frame flame kick vs. when you need a 5-frame flame kick is also impossible to tell. The only jump-ins that I’m really worried about are the empty ones and the safe ones–those will throw my timing off way more.
I like the sound of those Kara Rekkas though. Is the input a plink for HK~LP when you do it, or is it a little looser than that?
Not artificial, it’s a legitimate extra frame. As far as situations go where it could be used:
Fei Long is knocked down by Akuma, who then performs a Demon Flip Dive Kick to hit on top of the head and high up on Fei’s hit box, but still meaty. All Normal Flame Kicks would get stuffed. EX Flame Kick would trade with the 2nd hit of the Flame Kick hitting Akuma and Fei Long resetting in mid-air. Kara EX Flame Kick cleanly beats the dive kick. It’s use is mainly for jump-ins that have a very steep, dive kick like angle. Technically, EX Flame Kick is enough to cope, but the Kara EX Flame Kick just gives you that extra little bit against them to make sure you avoid any form of trade (such as with Chun Li j.roundhouse).
The Kara Rekka is a slide (~) using st.roundhouse and the strength punch button you want for the Rekka. It only works if you return the stick to neutral after the motion and hit the button slide in good time; failing to do this does not give you any extra range. It works due to the button input leniency in SSF4.
Maybe you guys have already learned this but two things that have really helped me tremendously in dealing with shotos is:
You can do EX CW in between cr. MK > Hadoken to interrupt that block string. Don’t you hate it when you finally close some distance only to get pushed back by Ryu’s/Ken’s annoying cr. MK > Hadoken? Watch for the cr. MK and spam EX CW and you should be able to go right through the hadoken and land yourself a combo…if Ken/Ryu/Akuma are too close, you’re EX CW wont’ come out…anyhow just try doing this in training mode to learn the distance at which you can do it. Most shotos will do cr. LP x 2, cr. MK > Hadoken…watch out for this and learn to use EX CW to counter it. Don’t get too predictable with it though b/c if they don’t follow up with Hadoken after cr. MK, you whiff over and lose 1 bar. However if you can’t connect after EX CW for a combo, it’s not really worth it lol so learn your combos!
Using cr. HP as a poke to punish whiffed attacks after doing rekka x 2. His other pokes such as cr. MP and cr. MK don’t have enough range. Learn your spacing and if they stick out that cr. MK and whiff, they eat a cr. HP…iI’m finding cr. HP to be such a good tool to punish whiffed attacks…not sure whether it’s b/c of the misleading hitbox on it or what but it hits, even if it looks like it won’t…like you’ll see Ryu already detracting his leg back from doing cr. MK and still your cr. HP will hit. Sure you can punish whiffed pokes with rekkas but it’s quite hard to do online and much riskier if you judge wrong. It’s much easier to punish on reaction by pressing one button than doing QCF + Punch right wouldn’t you say lol? Once they get scared of throwing pokes out, you can start to pressure more with rekkas and CW.
I never realized how important spacing and footsies is to Fei’s game. I used to just go gungho with rekkas and CW’s and totally disregarded my footsie game lol…now I’m slowly starting to learn and finding new things and it’s pretty neat.
You can also focus attack to punish the fireball after cr.MK.
Ah that’s good to know. That could prove to be useful if I ever get that input down :-/ I’m guessing a list of applications would appear to be something like:
Maybe? Will test.
Thanks for the input note :china:
That’s what I do, but with the frame advantage (in most cases) a lv1 is all you can do. It’s safe on forward dash but still leaves you at -1 at best which isn’t really worthwhile considering Fei’s lv1 only does 60 dmg. Watching some other vids, I notice people FADC’ing through fireballs to do a grab actually. Since EX CW works to counter this, I’m assuming you would have enough time to FADC in as well if you didn’t have meter, but it’s a stretch (Fei’s fwd dash=17f+4f delay+3f grab, 24f total). Maybe enough time to dash in cr.LP xx Tenshin? More testing needed on that.
[edit] No-can-do-sville on that last part
The only hard thing with a reversal Kara EX Flame Kick is that you have to perform a perfect, 1-frame reversal. Otherwise, you get a normal EX Flame Kick.
@Tsua - Fei Long’s ground game (his pokes, his movement, his AA) IS his entire game. If he had his movement from ST, he’d be broken though.