Korean arcade parts discussion

[Agieze]

@wazwuz
Silicone grommets for korean sticks with shore A hardness > 60 ?
Samducksa(Crown) released only 55A and 60A silicone grommets for the 307ST joysticks. Nothing more unfortunately.Perhaps there are custom aftermarket upgrades but the only I saw were not for Crown and only in stiffer natural rubber.

The funny thing is vendors claim on their websites ( Fa and PA vendors for example) that there is only one type of 307St silicone grommet . The official Tekken7 cabs have 307ST shore60A grommets while the one sold by FA is tested at 55A and the one sold by PA is not rated.

I wonder if the 60A version is solely reserved for official T7 cab owners or if simply Samducksa is poorly advertising and selling the sticks without giving the vendors any info at all . Did you test personally the hardness of what is available in 307 sticks (natural rubber and silicone) ?

According to tester Hibal in his LATEST review of the 307 silicone grommets, there was an undisclosed critical issue (tear? homogeneity? curing? ) with the pigments in the 55 shore A models, thus Samducksa sent three grommets to the korean testers concerned: two in 55A hardness (one translucid , another opaque white) and one in 60A (opaque white color).
Looks like Samducksa let go of the translucid option, favoring the opaque white version for the 55A for commercial release. 60A was offered to test only in one version anyways (same pigment).

Concerning the softer grommets, when I evoked this problem, some people ( for commercial reasons) on this forum ( not this thread though) made fun of me claiming “soft is a question of feeling” while I maintained that too soft a grommet could lead to several problems , one of them being that deflection was inevitable unless the player has a special technique . Kuenste (another tester) showed this in one video with experimental samducksa silicone grommets of 45a hardness from an initial prototype batch: it wobbled to such a point that the shaft seemed to bounce all over the place if it was released all of a sudden . Hibal confirmed also this and that this grommet was not part of the second batch of protos sent to testers ( only 55 and 60A type was sent) . You too seem to confirm my experience that excessively soft silicones are too “bouncy” as you coined it.

Some people complain about stock grommets (natural rubber, didn’t read anything about silicone ones failing yet, it’s too early) in crown sticks, being torn and or cracked easily after limited use: I wonder if it’s due to poor consistency in the batches coming out of the factory which means there is little quality control, or if simply the rubber used per se is just out of the lowest grade and or poorly processed.
Any clues on the subject, Wazwuz? Are your grommets of the exact same material as fanta or crown or better quality rubber? It seems you only propose non silicone replacements, is that exact?
Another question: did you ever encounter tearing problems with the silicone grommets in the fabled Fanta “airbag” models and if so in which conditions?

The only problem I see with stiffer units is the possibility of cracking, but it’s true that a fast return to neutral is desirable ( as opposed to squishy soft grades). It all depends on what quality of elastomer is chosen and what design is applied.
Personally I think there is a problem with the fact that the korean joystick grommets do not have a central metal fitting as in industrial vibration mounts and also as in the old wico sticks ( but their grommets were too stiff and cracked easily) : wihtout this type of fitting the hole widens and the stick ends up wobbling in neutral position after a while. An interesting fact is that the rare Suzo 500 rubber grommet was similar to korean sticks in that it lacked a central brass fitting in the grommet.
What’s your opinion?

Hello, I made rubber part for a living, so i can made rubber mod with different hardness and material (right now i testing silicone 65-70 in my crown fanta)
silicone elastomer have bad properties in cut grow, so when there is small cut it will take no time to be a serious damage. (maybe you can google it for more about silicone elastomer properties)

Natural rubber have properties low resistance to oxidation, so yes it could be cracking/soften (failure) when exposed to oxygen in long period of time. I made my Crown mod from synthetic rubber.

I don’t have 307/ST joysticks so i cant talk much about it.

Btw, my aluminium actuator causing squeaky sound after two days, this is because metal vs metal (actuator vs switch lever), righ now I try use Nylon for my oversized actuator. hope this will works well.

Standard grades of silicone are mentioned in elastomer handbooks as having low tear strength but being relatively inert chemically indeed. Reinforced platinum cured tear resistant grades exist but they are much more expensive and more rigid, it would cost too much to have them produced for inexpensive crown joysticks.

When you say synthetic rubber for your personal grommets , do you mean SNR (synthetic natural rubber) , or just some synthetic substitute that behaves more or less like natural rubber while not being derived from isoprene?

I’ve always been against machined aluminum actuators and plain bearings without adequate treatment ( and even then, the coating fails often, depending on type of wear…) . I think it’s ok just for prototypes to see how the device behaves for just a few cycles.
I don’t know if you tried this, but hardcoating aluminum then impregnating the pores of the coating with a fluoropolymer is perhaps the best that can be done for aluminum at moderate cost ( who could afford BAM coating for . Standard DIY treatment of aluminum with salts, water and a battery will not even touch this coating in terms of friction and wear.
I agree that nylon is a good option for actuators, perhaps a reinforced grade with glass would be better when we deal with levered microswitches, as the leafs rub seriously against the actuator. I tried grades with glass and impregnated with oil, they are quite acceptable (reinforced delrin is better but costs more).

@jmanDMC
I should have formulated better, I meant rather that what was available from arcade parts vendors today is -oddly- restricted to a choice of only 1 rubber grommet or 1 silicone grommet for the 307 stick, the silicone being only the 55A type. Korean testers who tried the grommets for Crown were very clear with the fact that two durometers were launched starting in february 2015 for silicone: 55 and 60A, with the 60A chosen officially for Tekken 7 cabs (read the links in the first page of this thread)

This is why I said that Crown is absolutely not clear in their advertising campaign for the 307, also that they may reserve the 60 for T7 cabs as an exclusivity ( or just the korean market, which is not unheard of when it concerns japanese or korean products, some options are exclusive to their countries).
t’was just an idea!

[jmanDMC]

@jmanDMC
I should have formulated better, I meant rather that what was available from arcade parts vendors today is -oddly- restricted to a choice of only 1 rubber grommet or 1 silicone grommet for the 307 stick, the silicone being only the 55A type. Korean testers who tried the grommets for Crown were very clear with the fact that two durometers were launched starting in february 2015 for silicone: 55 and 60A, with the 60A chosen officially for Tekken 7 cabs (read the links in the first page of this thread)

This is why I said that Crown is absolutely not clear in their advertising campaign for the 307, also that they may reserve the 60 for T7 cabs as an exclusivity ( or just the korean market, which is not unheard of when it concerns japanese or korean products, some options are exclusive to their countries).
t’was just an idea!

Understood. I’ll have refer to @wazwuz’s statement regarding ±5 variances. From a business standpoint, issuing 307 models with just +5 more in grade specifically to T7 cabs seems like an odd choice to make - at least in this case. Indeed if I pressed a bit harder on the grommet, it’s likely I would have measured 60A. It doesn’t appear to be a perfect measurement, which would explain wazwuz’s consideration of less or more when reading the grade.

[Agieze]

it is no secret that these gaming companies base their marketing strategies on minor technical differences in a given product line. Crown was all fussy with +/-5 differences on a whole range of grommets, and insisted a lot on this aspect while more important things were happening with a later special 307 version and a revised 303 version with 307 style silicone grommet (the new 309).

tester Hibal states on his website (page 709) that the initial stick for T7 cabs was a standard retail 307ST-60 ( and the 60A is for sure, it’s not a pre-february 2015 claim, his article is from end of july 2015)but that there is a new 307 version that is to appear in the -same- Tekken7cabs and following Tekken cabs this year, the “help me” 307 version.
Also, the next crown 309 is supposed to replace the 307 in Tekken cabs soon enough .

Phantomnaut already explained that the switch positioning in the 309 was reversed compared to the 307 (thus similar to 303 positioning).
There seems to be no difference with the 303 body apart from color: even the tabs securing the switches are the same , which is a downgrade from the 307 type of securing tabs (307 tabs have better design).
The 309 actuator is a white 303 type actuator but made of DELRIN and oversized 1mm compared to stock 303 and this will help a lot to reduce wear and enhance tightness of play compared to the flimsy material used previously.
309 grommet is made of silicone and supposedly an upgrade from the 307 type in terms of feel and execution according to reviews, thickness being oversized as well.
This time the stock 309 will already be a “helpme” version according to Hibal and others (hence a 303 “helpme” mod then…) ,
309’s main body seems to be just a 303 model, and is still suffering from post mold shrinking and warping, the photos speak for themsleves. I’m disappointed Santoku didn’t make any efforts for this part at all. It means some players will still need to find of make custom securing plates for the switches.

I wonder why they thickened the silicone grommet for the 309, perhaps under heavy use the 307 ones started to show some tearing or else it helps recenter better the shaft to neutral, or perhaps both, who knows.

interesting mods but is this enough to issue a new stick?

In a nutshell:

-307 “helpme” mod : standard 307 body + oversized 307 actuator made of machined white polymer (same material as 309 actuator=delrin?) + panasonic switches .

-309 ( already a “helpme” design in stock version) : 303 body in black+ upgraded thicker 307 style ST silicone grommet + 1mm oversized 303 type actuator made of delrin.

They could just sell the switches,grommets and actuators seperately like sanwa and seimitsu already do, people would be a hell of a lot more into crown products if parts could be purchased as seperate units.

EDIT: 307 helpme and 309 are not the same although being both “helpme” (whatever that means) .
309 is really a 303 that went through the “helpme” modding process.

[Agieze]

@jmanDMC

I had the right intuition.

ST silicone grommet is sold to retailers in two versions (whether it’s stupid or not, that’s how they’re doing it) :

• hardness 55shore A (home version)
• " 60 " " (arcade)

Source: http://www.istmall.co.kr/shop/goods/goods_view.php?goodsno=9992395&category=020

By the way,on the official 307F photos from Samducksa, the actuator is white though, but looks like the early prototype part, not the final part as reviewed by testers and found in retail version (black with rounded edges as opposed to white proto with sharper edges, proto which is somehow similar to “helpme” upgrade).
(See test of 3 different sized white actuator protos for 307 :
http://hibal.tistory.com/651 )

[jmanDMC]

@Agieze allow me some time to confirm with my supplier as to which version of grommet we’re getting. All of this information is new to me, and perhaps to my supplier as well. The link you posted goes to a 404; can you repost?

I’m not seeing the white actuator you are referring to in the photos. Am I missing something?

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server500/d90a4/products/1259/images/7065/CROWN_CWL_307_FJW_BOTTOM__65284__70550.1439782230.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

For the remainder of those reviewing this conversation, I recognize things can get incredibly technical here. I won’t argue against that - the whole point of it existing in Tech Talk. For the most part, players have found marked improvement over the 303, ST or not but again, both models are available for those with a preference.

For now, I agree that differing grommet by 5shore A seems like an odd choice to make. All I can do is ask about it, and see if possible to update if this is the case.

@jmanDMC

I had the right intuition.

ST silicone grommet is sold to retailers in two versions (whether it’s stupid or not, that’s how they’re doing it) :

• hardness 55shore A (home version)
• " 60 " " (arcade)

Source: http://www.istmall.co.kr/shop/goods/goods_view.php%3Fgoodsno%3D9992395%26category%3D020&usg=ALkJrhhKWYYpD7_UWo1RZgEdIXrrie-r2A

By the way,looking at the photos on the FA webstore, the actuator on the version you sell of 307 is white (looks like the upgraded “helpme” part), while the stock is black. It would be a good thing to get the caliper out and compare black and white actuators on the 307 models , and see if the white one is oversized or not. If it isn’t, it just means they did a white run of the stock part that only coincides with the color of the oversized updated “helpme” actuator for 307.
On the official 307F photos from Samducksa, the actuator is white though, but looks like the early prototype part, not the final part as reviewed by testers (with rounded edges as opposed to white proto with sharper edges, proto which is somehow similar to “helpme” upgrade).

[Agieze]

@jmanDMC

you wrote a reply why I was updating the link, see original post.

The photos on your site reflect indeed the actual stock models, I mixed up with photos from a website where the pics were taken directly from the Samducksa site , where still today the 307F pics reflect the appearance of a transitional model that is between proto (with white actuator)and retail version . Sorry for the confusion, I’ll update my post accordingly.

According to Istmall website, the 303 is also updated since 2015 with “ST” grommets (no big news since 303 & 307 have same grommet housing dimensions, new 309 is probably compatible too, but needs confirmation).
sSince Istmall can sell official 307 grommets as seperate parts (as shafts too) , I don’t see why western vendors wouldn’t be able to do so equally.They don’t sell the 309 grommets seperately yet though.

just a wild guess: 307 body + jap mount plate + hardest grommet (60ST or new 309, thicker) + oversized “helpme” 307 actuator in delrin + cherry D44LR1LD (levered, 40cN, branded D44X, new ref 2015 being D449-R1LD-G2) + jap conversion shaft&tops would be an intersting mix-match of parts for a tight feel and soft switching(40cN /40gram force is much lower than what is found is korean stock joystick models) .

The thing is how to get the damn switches (and other similar models) without going through the hassle of ordering with Mouser.com or ebay crook-shops…

Another good thing to ask/do : western vendors being able to sell “helpme” updated models and parts. these upgraded parts are well machined and will probably last longer than the cheapo warped parts with flashes we see usually.

[jmanDMC]

@Agieze,

@wazwuz mentioned he is investigating delrin oversize actuators at this time. I will support it if he chooses to design it. Kowal is working on a helpful solution for Fanta joysticks. I’m trying to it listed by end of month.

Your suggestion sounds like a helluva mix. All I can do is inquire with wazwuz on grommets and actuators for now, and look into the Cherry switch. The remaining parts I believe FA has.

I’m not certain about the extra grommets at this time, but asked my supplier about whether it was possible to purchase them as separate pieces. I think we’ll also see what Wazwuz comes up with.

@jmanDMC

you wrote a reply why I was updating the link, see original post.

The photos on your site reflect indeed the actual stock models, I mixed up with photos from a website where the pics were taken directly from the Samducksa site , where still today the 307F pics reflect the appearance of a transitional model that is between proto (with white actuator)and retail version . Sorry for the confusion, I’ll update my post accordingly.

According to Istmall website, the 303 is also updated since 2015 with “ST” grommets (no big news since 303 & 307 have same grommet housing dimensions, new 309 is probably compatible too, but needs confirmation).
sSince Istmall can sell official 307 grommets as seperate parts (as shafts too) , I don’t see why western vendors wouldn’t be able to do so equally.They don’t sell the 309 grommets seperately yet though.

just a wild guess: 307 body + jap mount plate + hardest grommet (60ST or new 309, thicker) + oversized “helpme” 307 actuator in delrin + cherry D44LR1LD (levered, 40cN, branded D44X) + jap conversion shaft&tops would be an intersting mix-match of parts for a tight feel and soft switching(40cN /40gram force is much lower than what is found is korean stock joystick models) .

The thing is how to get the damn switches (and other similar models) without going through the hassle of ordering with Mouser.com or ebay crook-shops…

Another good thing to ask/do : western vendors being able to sell “helpme” updated models and parts. these upgraded parts are well machined and will probably last longer than the cheapo warped parts with flashes we see usually.

[The_Phantomnaut]

I will see if I can get the IST FLF lever as soon as possible. It will be the ST variant so it will have the silicone instead of rubber. To add to it, it looks like the tension can fit inside a Myoungshin Fanta so it might be all right for experimentation.

I see the 309 models from various Korean sticks and some arcade pics but Crown hasn’t updated their site yet with it…

[wazwuz]

"They could just sell the switches,grommets and actuators seperately like sanwa and seimitsu already do, people would be a hell of a lot more into crown products if parts could be purchased as seperate units."
I like this idea, every individu have their own preferences. Lets make this happen

I use nitrile base polymer for my grommets. Since everyone talk about silicone grommets, Recentlly i try to mold using silicone 60, and test it. I feel silicone 60 have less resistance than nitrile excactlly like i guessed. Since I used to use my nitrile based, I dont like it to soft (personal prefernce) Then to balance it, i use stock crown switches, this works nice. Resistance of the switch help to overcome the silicone. But yet it still feel a bit softer than my upgrade kit.

@jmanDMC maybe i can prepare you some sampel of my silicone 60 grommets and give it to some tester. I will ship it with your order. Along with myungshing grommets sample.

For my nylon actuator, it works well. 1mm oversized actuator works very well with my rubber mod. It feels perfect for me (i like it better than myungshin). @Agieze Darlin (POM) is great idea, since it was strongger than nylon, i will give it a try this weekend.

[jmanDMC]

I’d actually like to create a list of testers here. It seems like the appropriate place to ask; you’re going to get an honest review from the most critical and technical of participants.

Let’s try this: Do we have any volunteer testers in the US? How about Europe?

For US testers, I’m already expecting a restock shipment from Wazwuz. I can ship a quantity of units to testers if they promise to offer a report here by end of month. I believe Wazwuz can distribute a few units to those closer to him under the same terms.

Regarding the actuators, I’ll look forward to @wazwuz’s follow up on this. It’s a performance mod, similar to Kowal’s 1m oversize actuator, which is very popular. (PS: AWUK will start to carry Kowal’s actuator in few weeks).

Either way, if Samducksa will not allow anyone outside of South Korea, perhaps ASI can assist in providing alternatives that - with help from here - come as close to your expectations as possible.

"They could just sell the switches,grommets and actuators seperately like sanwa and seimitsu already do, people would be a hell of a lot more into crown products if parts could be purchased as seperate units."
I like this idea, every individu have their own preferences. Lets make this happen

I use nitrile base polymer for my grommets. Since everyone talk about silicone grommets, Recentlly i try to mold using silicone 60, and test it. I feel silicone 60 have less resistance than nitrile excactlly like i guessed. Since I used to use my nitrile based, I dont like it to soft (personal prefernce) Then to balance it, i use stock crown switches, this works nice. Resistance of the switch help to overcome the silicone. But yet it still feel a bit softer than my upgrade kit.

@jmanDMC maybe i can prepare you some sampel of my silicone 60 grommets and give it to some tester. I will ship it with your order. Along with myungshing grommets sample.

For my nylon actuator, it works well. 1mm oversized actuator works very well with my rubber mod. It feels perfect for me (i like it better than myungshin). @Agieze Darlin (POM) is great idea, since it was strongger than nylon, i will give it a try this weekend.

[slaycruz]

I’d actually like to create a list of testers here. It seems like the appropriate place to ask; you’re going to get an honest review from the most critical and technical of participants.

Let’s try this: Do we have any volunteer testers in the US? How about Europe?

For US testers, I’m already expecting a restock shipment from Wazwuz. I can ship a quantity of units to testers if they promise to offer a report here by end of month. I believe Wazwuz can distribute a few units to those closer to him under the same terms.

Regarding the actuators, I’ll look forward to @wazwuz’s follow up on this. It’s a performance mod, similar to Kowal’s 1m oversize actuator, which is very popular. (PS: AWUK will start to carry Kowal’s actuator in few weeks).

Either way, if Samducksa will not allow anyone outside of South Korea, perhaps ASI can assist in providing alternatives that - with help from here - come as close to your expectations as possible.

"They could just sell the switches,grommets and actuators seperately like sanwa and seimitsu already do, people would be a hell of a lot more into crown products if parts could be purchased as seperate units."
I like this idea, every individu have their own preferences. Lets make this happen

I use nitrile base polymer for my grommets. Since everyone talk about silicone grommets, Recentlly i try to mold using silicone 60, and test it. I feel silicone 60 have less resistance than nitrile excactlly like i guessed. Since I used to use my nitrile based, I dont like it to soft (personal prefernce) Then to balance it, i use stock crown switches, this works nice. Resistance of the switch help to overcome the silicone. But yet it still feel a bit softer than my upgrade kit.

@jmanDMC maybe i can prepare you some sampel of my silicone 60 grommets and give it to some tester. I will ship it with your order. Along with myungshing grommets sample.

For my nylon actuator, it works well. 1mm oversized actuator works very well with my rubber mod. It feels perfect for me (i like it better than myungshin). @Agieze Darlin (POM) is great idea, since it was strongger than nylon, i will give it a try this weekend.

I’d love to be a tester sinceI use korean sticks on the regular.

[jmanDMC]

I’d love to be a tester since I use korean sticks on the regular.

Sounds good - Are you located in US or EU? We’ll get a list going for domestic and international based on how many test units @wazwuz can provide.

[slaycruz]

I am in the US…San antionoo to be exact.

[jmanDMC]

I am in the US…San antionoo to be exact.

Great - let’s add you to the list. I’ll provide you with a sample of the Myoungshin grommet and 60 Shore A silicone unit.

I’ll need to know the quantity of units @wazwuz can provide to me to figure out how many I can add to the list.

[slaycruz]

I am in the US…San antionoo to be exact.

Great - let’s add you to the list. I’ll provide you with a sample of the Myoungshin grommet and 60 Shore A silicone unit.

I’ll need to know the quantity of units @wazwuz can provide to me to figure out how many I can add to the list.

Sounds good let me know good sir.

[wazwuz]

I am in the US…San antionoo to be exact.

Great - let’s add you to the list. I’ll provide you with a sample of the Myoungshin grommet and 60 Shore A silicone unit.

I’ll need to know the quantity of units @wazwuz can provide to me to figure out how many I can add to the list.

10pcs myungshin rubber mod is ready,
now I’m preparing about 5 pcs of crown silicon sampel. is this number is enough for testing?
@jmanDMC is it okay to pending your order for couple of days?, so i can ship it together.

FYI all, when I said 60 shore A, it can be vary between 60-65 shore, A deepens on your durometer.
also compounding eastomer in small amount is like cooking, you can never have 100% exact taste, there are so many factor involved.

[jmanDMC]

@wazwuz - let’s go with 5 pieces of the silicone sample. I don’t yet know how many will opt in for testing domestically, so I can’t say whether more are needed.

It is also worth noting as you said regarding the shore rating; we’re incredibly hard up on exact numbers for performance, which makes it difficult to meet expectations consistently. That may also apply to the grommets in the 307-ST. Performance mods are designed to tune to one’s preferences, hopefully improving gameplay to those expectations. It helps to have a wish list of components that apply to the core product. From there, wazwuz and I can focus on a few mods that make sense. As I understand it, there are three groups of performance mods out or WIP:

[list=1]
[] 303-FK to Myoungsin Fanta mod
[] 60 Shore A Silicone mod for 307
[*] Oversize actuator for 307 (Delrin)
[/list]

Are there any more that I forgot to list?

10pcs myungshin rubber mod is ready,
now I’m preparing about 5 pcs of crown silicon sampel. is this number is enough for testing?
@jmanDMC is it okay to pending your order for couple of days?, so i can ship it together.

FYI all, when I said 60 shore A, it can be vary between 60-65 shore, A deepens on your durometer.
also compounding eastomer in small amount is like cooking, you can never have 100% exact taste, there are so many factor involved.

[armi0024]

For references since this conversation is in multiple threads, on and offline, here are the measurements for the actuators. I apologize for the bad drawing, I’m on on my solidworks computer. We have ordered samples of this oversized ones we expect shortly. Take care @agieze

[The_Phantomnaut]

While not directly Korean parts, Kuenste did some rough lag testing between the PS360+'s PS4, the Hori Real Arcade Pro V and Magiclab’s new Magicstick M4. The M4 has a touchpad even if it visually looks weird. Looks like it doesn’t work with normal Korean levers but for Japanese mounted models.

[wazwuz]

For references since this conversation is in multiple threads, on and offline, here are the measurements for the actuators. I apologize for the bad drawing, I’m on on my solidworks computer. We have ordered samples of this oversized ones we expect shortly. Take care @agieze

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hUtbDllHSvk/Vh2lrvCKR6I/AAAAAAAAMVc/XjYjJAxSqY8/s504-Ic42/Korean%2520stick%2520actuator.jpg

For which stick is that actuator? And is the sketch in milimeters?