Is it just me, or is Joe a bad matchup for Andy?
I was playing my buddy earlier the other day and we had the other on anchor respectively and it was a bit of a struggle, and I watched Luis Chah’s Andy struggle against The Answer’s Joe on The Runback today.
Thoughts?
Joe and Andy? This was never really elaborated on but…
Andy’s pressure game is more or less safe - or seems like it. I don’t really see that many Andy’s at tournaments but they damn sure are ABUNDANT online… I’m sure you might just understand why that is…
Andy’s Zaneiken is punishable by a lot of characters - even before it actually hits you. Andy’s Kuuhaden can be a good distance cross-up (that most people are not going to fall for anyhow) - it is still a good move because can be broken into for follow ups. Joe would have difficulty against Andy mainly due to his pressure game. Joe’s D version Tiger Kick has a SHIT TON of invincibility but it is not safe. The B version has quick recover and sweet start-up. Should you use the Tiger Kick, try it when the opponent jumps towards you because it is much harder to punish. Joe’s overall purposes seems to revolve around zoning the opponent. And don’t get deceived by Joe’s projectile - it can still get hopped over. The A version has better recovery and is far easier to conduct a follow up (something like Golden Heel, but the B version isn’t safe on the ground). Andy’s pressure might be safe, but he can still be easily punished, especially by the likes of Joe. Joe can punish Andy’s Zaneiken attempts with D Tiger Kick - Joe has really good juggle opportunities as well after a good set up. Andy’s C Hishoken has a lot of recovery while the A version does not - it is easy to take advantage of things like this.
Andy also has very quick meter building and quite a few good meter-less combos. Andy’s DM’s are damn near useless however and… Andy’s Neo Max has priority over… everything. I don’t think his EX Kuuhaden has invincibility anymore after arcade. It is easy to bait out his attacks, but you really got to time your attacks carefully with Joe too. It’s not that he is hard to use or if it is a bad match up…
I have not spent that much time on Andy nor Joe but, I do know what they capable fundamentally speaking. Andy turned out to be a bit of a shotoclone in this game… so that also means he can get really predictable. With Joe make sure you plan your attacks. Zone with your Hurricane Uppers and then react on the opponents movement…
I believe it only hits like that with the D version. Haven’t used the EX version like that, but I’m pretty sure it’s not high enough to do that in the first place. And I know you can jump over the tornados, I just get chipped alot by his EX one. 
I was totally unaware of this. Thanks. 
Would anyone know the of good exmaples of when to use A Hishouken then?
Not if you Kuuhadan and do the roll cancel thing to juggle a bit and then DM Kuuhadan and finish with a Max Cancel.
I should probably work on the latter before trying to get down HD. My biggest weakness is that I second guess myself when actually playing someone, it isn’t fear, it’s just that my hands aren’t doing automatically what I know I should be doing in the match. I can execute just fine after awhile in training mode, but of course it’s totally different in an actual match. I know, this isn’t news, just giving perspective as to why I can’t consistently HD still.
TLDR; I suck. : P
You can actually do quite alot of damage with his HD or even just a few drive cancels into DM or NeoMax. You can pretty much Neomax after any of Andy’s specials, ABC or D, I haven’t tested out any of the EXs other than his Kuuhadan though, I should probably do that sometime.
Lastly, I’m pretty sure you’re right about EX Kuudan not having invincibility anymore.
I play both characters and overall, Andy is a better character in terms of defensive options and offensive. Joe has stun combos and better damage output at the cost of not building as much meter as one would hope(he still builds it well, dont get me wrong, but Andy is a monster in the meter build department), and defensive options. For example, if Joe is in the corner, he suffers from the Takuma syndrome… as in he has no vertical normal or attack that would stop a normal jump or super jump from the likes of Iori or Kyo and has nothing to contest with them. Andy has 5D, which is about 2-4 frames(it might be 2 frames, cant wait to see his frame data) and it is really good when he is in the corner. Joe has to EX Dp out to safety or roll. Andy can EX Kuuhadan(big hitbox on it and recovers fast), EX DP to get away, roll, 5D or Zaneiken. They have equally good CD’s in the air but I think Andy has a slight edge over him because he can do anything from rushdown, zone, or reset. Joe on the other hand has to zone or rushdown, and your execution has to be on point with him. Andy is not execution heavy. In terms of matchup, its probably 5-5. Some breakdown:
Andy pros/cons vs Joe:
Pros: Builds meter faster. Can normal jump D and Joe cannot do jack shit about it due to no vertical anti air. Has a better DP in terms of startup. Has 2D, one of the best sweeps in the game, it makes his hurtbox smaller as well. Can use any DM to hurt Joe since he has no top tier hyperhop/jump arcs. Joe cannot pressure Andy with 5A because C Shoryuudan beats it cleanly, but it is rather “psychic” read. Let’s just say Joe can’t throw this out as much as he likes to.
Cons: Can’t Zaneikan at will due to Hurricanes. Can’t Kuuhadan due to Hurricanes. Cannot safehop pressure Joe thanks to EX DP(on counter, Joe is guaranteed 296 DAMAGE!). Joe can slide under Hishouken fireballs for better spacing/soft knockdown/HD Bypass(yes, he can go into raw neomax for about 600 damage from slide, dont know why people do not use this).
Pro for both characters: Both can EX DP through weak blockstrings.
Even though it may seem like a huge gap in Andy’s favor it’s not. Andy is taken out of his rhythm if he cannot Zaneikan all day. Joe is also taken out of his because his best option in the matchup is to zone. He does not have good hop pressure or safejumps to stop Andy from DP’ing him. I’d say it’s 5-5 for now.
Thank you for reminding me, what are Andy’s safejump setups other than the DM you mention later? And which Zan are you talking about A or C?
I love the chip it offers. So good.
Good strats man, will use.
Forgive my ignorance, but you mean forward + A right? Harate Uchi?
I love that about him.
I’m sorry, 5D? I thought initially you meant a neutral jump D, but I don’t think I’m right.
That’s pretty much what I’m asking, do you mean a diagonal forward jump or neutral jump?
You should only use Zan+A.
We use numpad for identifying moves. 5 is nuetral, 4 is back, 6 is forward, etc. I mean nuetral A and nuetral D(close D)
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Normal jump is just a normal jump lol. We usually say Nuetral jump or not. Normal jump is just diagonal up or diagonal back.
I thought so, sorry for the scrubbish question, but I knew about that notation, I just wasn’t sure if it was specific to 3D games like Soul Caliber.
Thanks though.
How do you beat Beni?
I main Billy, Clark, and Hwa in that order. I have no idea what to do in that match. Beni has great air-to-air control, a 1 frame grab, great runaway, great wakeup SRK, and that s.D poke.
About to pick up the game for xbox, I haven’t been following the console scene all that much but living in Hawaii I gotta ask, did they patch the netcode?
Well, they patched the matchmaking, but the netcode itself isn’t patched. The netcode is playable on some 3 bar connections and on most 4 bar connections.
The netcode is shit. Don’t buy the game. As much as I love this game, if you’re buying this for the online play, you’ll waste your money. I live in the Netherlands, and we have some of the best internet in the world, and still playing against other people in the country is nigh unplayable, and in other countries in Europe is impossible.
Ok so the character I am about to study is Ryo. Been looking at his normals and he has some of the faster normals in the game all around. 2C is 2 frame normal and this character is scary AS SHIT when you start implementing Parry. He can parry and go straight into neomax for 600 damage. Right now, he can do 700 from 2 bars, 100% drive and overhead.
Frame Data
Anyone? Any thoughts at all on how to beat Beni? I feel like I have to play keepaway.
*Bingo. Zoning out Beni is your best answer. While he can somewhat “match” some fireballs he still has to maneuver around them. When you have him knocked down try to safejump to make his dp whiff. Though he has a answer to that in the way of timed wakeup command grab to catch you while you’re landing and before you stickout a limb. I haven’t been playing this game much lately but zoning has been pretty much the only thing Beni doesn’t have a consistent answer for. He excels in controlling the space in front of him and setting up ambiguous crossups but if you’re on your peas and q’s you can keep him out.
Though you don’t seem to use any zoning characters except for Billy.*
Clark can zone to an extent with his s.C and s.D. His CD also AA’s but the timing to AA some jump ins are hard as fuck to pull off. And then you have Hwa’s normals. Forget about it.
Beni’s DP isn’t so much a problem, Beni players seem to use it after they runaway and try to bait you to jump at them. The bigger problem is with Beni’s wakeup. I feel like I have to back off once I knock him down or I could get grabbed, if I jump I get nailed with SRK or Shield Super.
Beni’s wakeup options is the MAIN reason why he’s good imo. I can take your rushdown, but when it comes to a point in time where I dont know what do fucking do against you when you are waking up… thats a problem. “I’m gonna bait out the DP” command grabbed “I’m gonna jump C” Air grabbed, or DP’d, or Super’d You cant stay on the ground because of command grab. I think I may have some tech that can stop his options, but actually it doesn’t :\
Only option I can think of is to stay out of range of his grab and try to Sweep, or bait and punish.
I gave it one last chance and I don’t give a fuck how I come off… The online is terrible. It looks playable but part of the problem is that half second of lag. The other part, and this is **HUGE **are the amount of retarded SF4 players that want to play keepaway the entire goddamn time and guess what happens when you’re at mid-range? They mash out a random EX or Special that’s totally unsafe on block but you’re not even running in, just walking, and it hits you…
Every. Single. One. of these mofos play the exact same way. Holy fuck.
I can only play friends and that’s it. I’m fucking done with this game online.
Yeah, I knew something was wrong when I wasn’t able to consistently do crBstB>rekkas with EX Kyo. Offline I can hitconfirm off of crB it’s so easy. But online? It’s like I have to jam my inputs in. I had a decent connection but while I was able to do combos, my AA game suffered a lot. Things I could easily reversal offline, I couldn’t online. On a good connection I can do combos and move around fine but it may not be enough.
I would even playing you but unless you’re east coast, it’s probably a waste of time.
So, I think I inadvertently discovered something new. I didn’t make the video, but just found it on youtube after searching “Duo Lon”
Duo Lon has kara cancels.
[media=youtube]xHdyEsmFQ4A[/media]
[media=youtube]VFJs_cegKBI[/media]
It would be cool if someone submitted this as a tip, because I don’t think anyone in KOF is supposed to have kara cancels IIRC.
If this does happen to be generally unknown, it would be cool if I was given credit for finding it, if not it’s whatever.