And again, alt guard blows up “Insert Clark’s normal here” xx step.
[media=youtube]jfzH323DMpQ[/media]
My response to Ralf stun combo… the nigga DID 236C AFTER THE 214AC! I did not think that worked! I have been doing that combo without that so I missed the stun potential since you can juggle back(charge)forward+A after 236C.
Ash/Beni/Andy as my first team and Saiki/Mature/Duo Lon on my second team.
My friend is bringin’ in Kula/Kensou/Joe.
Should be good fun.
Your first team is spot on! You can get away with a lot this way - first of all, these characters have a good set of options to work with and you can switch up should you choose to do so. Andy’s Neo Max has priority over… well, everything. So you placed him in last because Beni is the one who can build meter for you. You will probably utilize Ash to… “scope” your opponent and out zone them whenever possible.
Your second team looks really intimidating. You have one of the best zoners in the game, and you have two rush-down gods on your team. Please look out for your opponents Kula though - she’s pretty much an anti-zoner so becareful. Joe might try to either zone you out or get in your face because he is capable of doing so. Kensou has some of the best hit confirms in the game as well.
Right now, I am testing the waters with EX Iori, Mai, and then, Athena. Other characters I’m figuring out are Shen and King.
Alt guard only blows up the string if the genius goes for a grab after every step.
what’s so bad about getting in from a blocked sweep? I was just pointing out that clark’s not at any real disadvantage by doing it
also isn’t it in the clark players advantage if the opponent decides to alternate guard all the time? thats freedom to do what he likes if he’s sure the other player wont be pressing buttons
Pretty much what you said, and thanks. I actually didn’t really consider Beni as mid for meter building, although I do know he can do that easily just by spamming lancer and raijinken when safe. But yeah, zoning, HD, and Sans Coullete with Ash, maybe a meter or two at most. Basically I try to keep my points using only a bar or two at most along with emphasis on HD to keep them in there, and save most of my meter in the long run for my mid and anchor.
Ash stays away and punishes, Beni gets in there but can also punish, and Andy can do anything to a degree, but his projectile really isn’t that good, but he still has a little bit of everything for me. Admittedly if I wanted to focus on air game for my anchor I would switch Andy and Beni.
Perhaps if I ever fully utilize Sans Coullette and all his DMs and Neomax on a consistent level I would switch to Beni/Andy/Ash.
My point used to be Kyo, and while he is pretty solid I just can’t get to used to alternating RDP and DP for juggles. I’ll try him out again when I get a stick, maybe then I can be more accurate.
I may try to even my second team out with say, Robert, so I don’t get so dependent on rekka rushdown characters.
Others that interest me are Goro, Leona, Vice, Iori, Kane, Kensou. Of course every character is fun.
I’d probably go Kensou/Kane/Goro and Vice/Iori/Leona respectively. Not sure, this game and my game are always changing. I love it. I’d have Iori on point instead, but IIRC he’s pretty meter dependent for good damage, correct?
Don’t have the DLC so I couldn’t say about EX Iori. Mai is whatever, and Athena is good except her pink diamond DM doesn’t get all the hits in alot of the time from what I’ve seen. Shen is of course always solid choice.
King is fun, and she’s also pretty decent, but my main gripe with her is her cr. D. Other than that the only thing I wish is that her DM and Neomax did a little more damage, I think it has the least of both in the game possibly?
It’s not completly true, because King can delay the venom strike and thus it won’t comes out if you break roll it. But if she is doing it you can dp into the hole …
Her Neomax deals damages depending on the number of hits,the max seems to be 540 raw damages
Moreover it comes out in 1 or 2 frames thus, it’s one of the best punishing tools in the game.
Her qcfqcf SDM is a good invincible anti air in both version, but ex one only can be used as a reversal one, because it starts in 3f and thus might catch most of jump ins. Contrary to her dp.
Just a few corrections to frame data, King’s Neo Max is one frame, it’s the only move in the game EX Kyo cannot safe jump. EX Surprise Rose is 2 frames, it will beat the majority of safe jumps (besides EX Kyo’s corner safe jump).
You can still GCRoll, and regardless you are safe.
I don’t exactly know for King NM since I didn’t take the time to test whether it’s 1 or 2, but Ex surprise rose comes out in 3 for sure, you can safe jump it.
Moreover they are other moves that can be safejumped, 2f kyo ex orochi, andy/Mai NM (Mai depends of the distance with the wall), but also Chin counter, Liz Ex counter, Goro NM, all of those are counter which seem to comes out in 2 frames at least.
Yeah you’re safe but you can’t punish.
I don’t know if you’re doing it late or what, but EX Surprise Rose is most definitely not 3 frame and most definitely not safe jumpable. There’s no frame data for most of what you claim is 2 frame, but EX Orochinagi is also not 2 frames for sure. I also have no idea how you’re safe jumping counters when they have no invincibility and literally require a hit to trigger them. If you’re landing and not getting put in the counter, chances are you’re not timing the safe jump attack properly and it’s just not coming out.
I *think *Clark can do a st.A or B after doing CD then Step. He could get thrown or hit out though. Hard to test this.
You don’t want to do Step after a blocked Sweep. Clark isn’t at any advantage so it’s basically a ‘hey, come fuck me up’ move.
Alt guard’s weakness is that it loses to staggered lows. The issue is, Clark needs to execute well if he wants to blow it up because he doesn’t have an easy solution to do so. EX Iori can do cr.B, cr.B, cl.B as a successive string to really beat out alt guard because of 3 consecutive low attacks and while still being in range to do a tick throw with a command throw. And after the string, he can still confirm into f.A and get a knockdown combo. Clark on the other hand only has a sweep which isn’t quite that fast and harder to time to beat alt guard, and cr.B, cr.A string into a combo. Cr.B, cr.A’s weakness is that Clark can’t really break with quick successful lows and still be in range to combo into something. The only thing I can picture is him doing cr.B and linking into a command throw on confirm but otherwise he has to work a bit to break alt guard.
Another thing about alt guard is that to maintain it, you only need to hold stand block for 1 frame at the least, then go back to down block for about 5-10 frames as I recall. So a perfect alt guard is virtually unstoppable. Most people don’t have this execution so doing alt guard is about a 50/50 chance, but since the leniency of doing it in this game is much easier than in the past, it’s much easier to hold down block for longer durations and just going up block for a little bit.
The thing about Clark vs. Alt guard is that Clark has to work to break it if he induced the blockstun in the first place. Sure he could do whatever, but it’s no different form the opponent blocking normally in the first place. So the opponent doing alt guard is really stopping a lot of tools for a very small price, where as Clark doing any command throw after putting the opponent into blockstun is too risky and doesn’t really gain anything from the opponent willing to alt guard more. He can’t break lows as easily as other characters and doesn’t have as much reward. If he tries to hop again to restart pressure, anyone could just come out of block and just do cl.C or a st.A to hit him out. The best he could do is try to guard break, but that’s already a part of normal blockstringing and something one should be doing without step. Step canceled from a blocked attack is just a really contrived way of saying you want to get back in and run something really obviously because you’re not good enough to force an error normally through spacing and getting a knockdown and properly running a true 50/50 on oki. Step canceled from certain attacks do have a purpose, but how most people use it it’s just really terrible and really obvious and dumb.
Another thing is that if Clark keeps stringing with run up cr.B and sweeps to try to break an alt guard, there is still always that risk of the opponent reading or reacting to it and just hopping on Clark. So just doing st.CD into Step is like a once in a blue moon tool that doesn’t actually give him anything more than he can already accomplish with good spacing or trapping with stuff like hop j.CD > sweep or etc.
For me ask a Clark player, Clark already has all of the tools that made him complete in other games. He doesn’t really need the dp soul throw move, he doesn’t need run grab or the 02 run grab that is not a grab, his gatling is actually usable, has a mexican upper now, doesn’t have or need a shining wizard, although it’ll be cool he doesn’t have or need running three. He pretty much has Ralf normals, a delay grab in lieu of frankensteiner, hcf+D, good j.CD, etc. Step really does nothing. The only true thing he gains is that he’s able to change his position if he does a knockdown normal into step so his spacing is a bit more varied, but it’s not that important. The only other thing I can think of is if there is some cool glitch that involves step to make step worth more than it initially is, because initially it really doesn’t accomplish much at all.
It is 2 frames, and therefore safejumpable. (Just really fucking hard, 1 frame timing, but EX Kyo can do it off P rekka ender into superjump), the only move not safejumpable in the game is King’s neomax). It’s up on the SRK wiki (I know you know this), and I’m sure Teyah did a good job at her framedata.
Maybe we’re having the discussion of KOF startup versus SF4 startup that includes the first active frame?
EX Orochinagi is 1 frame, you can link it from his close C, which is +2 on hit. The trick is that you have to hold the buttons a slight bit into the superstop, it speeds up the move, if you don’t do that it’s like 7 frames. this is a throwback to KOF2002 Kyo, who could also make his normal Orochi quicker.
[S]That’s strange though, if it is 1-frame startup, you shouldn’t be able to safejump it. (frame 1, your jump-in is ‘in’ the animation, frame 2 you are in land recovery and the move becomes active)…[/S]
[S]I have no idea why it works.[/S]
[S]Maybe Kyo’s hitstun on cl.C is an exception and actually gives +3, while still giving 0 on block?[/S]
If you time the delay well, it is actually unsafejumpable.[S][/S]
I did mention on the last page about EX Kyo being able to safe jump it, it’s just the majority of the cast isn’t EX Kyo and all.
I guess I was just messing that bit up then, because I was safe jumping it just fine.
Yeah I read that later on. But you know, all those characters COULD safejump it, it’s just not as insanely easy, but instead insanely hard 
Yeah, it’s pretty hard to get it right.
hey man I respect the analysis! I’m actually not even a clark player but I understand some more strengths and weaknesses of character toolsets. I’m interested in some examples of 50/50 oki options for grapplers because this is my first kof and I don’t understand how grapplers have true 50/50s with the throw invul frames.
Question for anyone who knows: What is the startup on jumps? Is there a way to know if you’re hitting your meaties correctly on your opponent’s wake up? How do you practice this?
I think I’m too impatient to play a grapple, so the one that interests me most is Vice.
There aren’t any absolute 50/50s generally, especially since reversals are better now in many regards. The main two oki choices are to use a delay grab which beats blocking or mashing, or go for a hitconfirm which beats attempts to jump out. However, both of these options lose to certain reversals and all backdashes, and this also assumes a hard knockdown and having a delayed command grab which only two characters have. Baiting and punishing reversals is a given, but punishing backdashes can be problematic. This is why you’ll see delayed sweeps or j.CDs on oki since they force a knockdown instead of a hit reset, but by using either tool you’re sacrificing your usual damage and command grab oki and instead moving on to some other oki situation. Also a sweep itself doesn’t do much damage in this game, which is why you see players like BALA try punishing backdash/jump attempts with juggling special moves like Clark’s EX Gatling Attack. These can work well and do mad damage, but most are unsafe on block.
On quickrise oki, you don’t need a delay grab since you can throw the opponent immediately. Benimaru has the best oki for this since he can react to a tech from any corner knockdown and go for 1) Normal throw > combo, 2) Command grab > oki or combo if EX’d, 3) cr.B chain into EX Raijinken loop/knockdown, or 4) wait to bait a reversal or backdash or whatever. But as you can see, it’s not so much a 50/50 though the guessing game is generally in favor of the grappler.
The closest setup to a 50/50 for a grappler is if Vice can get a soft knockdown from her sweep or some odd instance (most of her combos go into hard knockdowns) against Mai or someone with no viable reversal options, and then react to a quickrise with either a meaty cr.B or a meaty command grab. If she backdashed, she’d be reset and vulnerable to Vice’s anywhere juggle, but honestly this setup is odd since you can tack on her anywhere juggles from all of her soft knockdown situations.
Thanks for the ideas. You should keep working on logicfighter!