I’m down for arcade mode. I want to be able to walk into an arcade with XI and be able to use the same combos there. I want to be able to play against one of the top Japanese players at Evo with the game they play. Remember, the rest of the world plays KoF in arcades just not the US.
BTW, I agree that the top tiers aren’t that bad. They’re beatable. Its like putting R2 Sagat on your team or a Mishima on your team in Tekken Tag.
Edit: Also, forgot to mention that they made Duolon HARDER to play.
YabukiStyle makes a good point. Arcades may not be common in the US anymore, but they still set the standard. Unless the whole world were to convert to PS2 Arrange Mode, you would only be hurting yourself in the competitive sense to limit your play to console.
I view the desire to ban things in games as a sign of not wanting to adjust and get better. It takes a looooooong time to determine what is really broken in a game, and often by the time you DO figure it out, something new has come along and you’re beating a dead horse. Frankly, the way SNK puts games out, I don’t think anybody will care enough about XI to make it worth putting that much effort into dissecting it and determining what is ok to ban or not.
I vote for Arrange Mode, for similar reasons as megaultrasuper. For me, most of the decisions made for arrange mode were pretty logical (requiring players to use actual timing on Oswald’s d.A links and Jazyu’s ABC chains, not to mention removing the “absolute juggle” property of Kula and Oswald’s LDMs), and I also appreciate it when a company listens to its players and, for the most part, improves things for the home release.
But, touching on what megaultrasuper and others have alluded to, the Arcade Perfect vs. “Balanced” home - release issue is one of (if not THE) major issues facing the community at the moment. On one hand, if companies see that any efforts they put in to improve the game for the home release go unnoticed, they’ll stop doing it. On the other hand, it may encourage companies to do these changes at the arcade - level first.
In any event, I’m glad we’re having coherent and intelligent discussion about this issue - it definitely deserves the attention.
Ok, can I get an actual explanation as to why? He has RETARDED corner combos that take no meter, I will fully acknowledge that. Otherwise I don’t see what is so bad about him that he should be banned. He doesn’t even have the same comboability off of crouching Bs that normal Kyo has, so his actual rush and mixup game is not as scary.
I’m not trying to say he is bad. He seems really really good. But he’s just a different spin on normal Kyo, I don’t see him as overall being better or worse.
Everything here is exactly the kind of ideas that we will eventually have to question. I may be going beyond the scope of this topic now, but since I have it on my mind I will post it.
Why is the arcade the standard when it is the least accessible version of the game? I am excluding Japan from this because that is a completely different competitive environment than here. There all the best players can get together and play all the time. They have been playing and disecting these games for years. I know KOF has been around in the US just as long, but the emergence of a strong competitive community for it is in it’s infancy. When we reach the level of Japan then we can redress the issue again about exactly what should be the standard. For now, the standard should be what is the easiest way to play the game.
About banning being a result of not wanting to get better at a game: That is not true. Perhaps the reason that I do not desire to get better at the game is because I know that no matter how hard I practice with a character, I am still at a disadvantage in a tournament situation.
Yes, I recognize that over time, the tier standings can change dramatically. It happens with practically every game that comes out. It took years and years for people to realize how good Balrog was in ST. Every few months some new character catches on in the CVS2 scene.
I believe that these games, and I’m not just talking about KOF anymore, will be coming out less and less and we will have to make due with what is left for us. The fighting games will become more like the classic games, like chess. There will be no more releases, only us to figure out the dynamic interactions between the characters in each game. Of course we can just move on to the next competitive thing and play something else.
But what If I don’t want to? What if, say, I want to go back and play Third Strike some more? How am I supposed to play 3S five years from now? In 2011 3S will be 12 years old. I think I will be tired of Chun Li, Ken, Yun by then. Maybe, just maybe it might be interesting to try out a tournament where those characters are banned. It might spur people to experiment with non-top tier characters and find new inspiration to play the game. Even those people who had been playing the big 3 all the game’s life. If it’s not as fun, then meh, back to the same old stuff or try something different.
Super Turbo is recently experiencing a renaissance in popularity. It might be due to a strong game design that allows most any character to be played at a high level with only minor exceptions. If we can whip any other game into that shape I think it will be a very good thing.
Super Turbo wasn’t made into a game where any character could compete at a high level by things being banned. It became that way by players making do with what was given them and learning how to get around the cheap stuff while trying to develop new things for the “weak” characters. To be honest, banning things usually just ends up limiting the game even more. Yes, maybe 12 years from now if you wanted to play 3S, people might go ahead and let you ban the top 3 characters. Be aware that this isn’t going to make Sean and Twelve any better.
And to be honest, if being at a disadvantage in tournament keeps you from wanting to get better at a game, then you probably don’t have what it takes to really excel at higher levels of play. The best players take what they are given and turn it into their strength. It takes determination and fortitude to be competitive at anything. Letting something like a character disadvantage dissuade you is not the way to go.
Regarding arcade being least accessible: You are twisting the situation. The way you are implying it, out of all the countries where SNK fighters are played competitively, Japan is the only country where the arcade version has easy access. The reverse is true: out of all the countries where SNK fighters are played competitively, USA is the only country where the arcade version does NOT have easy access. We’re the exception here, not the rule. Basically, unless all of Latin America/South America/Europe/Middle East/Southeast Asia switches over to console, arcade will remain the standard. Not to say it won’t happen, but it is going to take a while, because arcades are still profitable outside of the US.
-Broken Air Red Kick
-Chain combo is a DM (Ouch)
-Mushiki abit less damaging than the kamikura
-Gold Aura makes up the the damage scaling effects of the Mushiki.
-Has everything what XI Kyo have excluding Projectile.
-More combos ever.
He’s only comparable to Doulon if you’re playing on arrange mode since NGBC chars still have spammable pokes.
Yes, Super Turbo has lasted because it allows players to find ways around the cheapness and develop new stuff. This is due to very very good game design. Even the top tier is not overpowering. I worry that some of the newer (and I use that as a relative term) games will not enjoy this. It is still far too early for even 3S to have reached this crossroads but I maintain that it is still something that will have to be addressed at some point if we want to continue to legitimately call it a good game for tournaments. Like I said, in about five years.
Also, banning the Big 3 does make Twelve and Sean better. Or worse. I don’t really know. I do know that it would definitely vastly change the competitive environment. A new top tier would replace the old. Makoto and Urien would have a field day. What else would come out of this we don’t know. It might end up worse than the way we started.
Wanting to not be at a disadvantage does not mean that you don’t have what it takes to excel at high levels of play. I don’t know any competitive environment where any player likes starting out at a disadvantage. The way you have stated it is slightly in error. The best players don’t hone their strength till they can play better even with a disadvantage. They merely find a another way to maintain an advantage, usually by finding a new way to play a character, or turning what was though at disadvantage into and an advantage. There is a subtle difference between the two ideas.
I am only disuaded from the idea that even though a game may feature a varied cast and gameplay, at high levels these notions may be tossed out the window and the gameplay reduced to an absurd parody of what the designers and players wanted it to be. Some people may like this type of gameplay, I know several people that do. I know that the actual gameplay of games almost always significantly differs from what was intended. I can accept all that, but for me to be interested in getting really good at the game I have to know that I have some freedom. Whether or not the current crop of games gives me this is something I will find out by playing the hell out of them in every single mode available.
Regarding Arcades outside the US: For now, I don’t think we should care. Super Battle Opera and Evo are anomalies. Before we can start worrying about how we can compete with the other countries we have to have a scene here to start with and the console is the best way to go about it.
Arcade mode… because there’s no legitimate reason to switch. You can yammer on for 8 paragraphs about building up a community and not worrying about what Japan is doing, but if Arrange Mode isn’t significantly better (which it isn’t) and changing to a different system will only put us at a disadvantage when playing against the rest of the world who plays the arcade version that’s been out for a year, why bother? It’s not like A3 where we didn’t have an arcade-perfect version sitting in our laps.
More importantly, arcade mode is not broken in the first place. Yes, there are 3 or 4 characters who are significantly better than the remainder of the cast. And? Name a good game that doesn’t have that “problem”.
I don’t know about the west, but even though it can be said that SNK cares about its fans by making an arranged mode, we people in the east still stuck with the original arcade mode all the way. Like a poster had said above, we want to walk into the arcade and be able to perform a combo that we can do fluidly at home. Maybe the company is aware that those in the west do not have constant arcade competition like we do, that’s why they made an arranged mode specially to cater to the western gamers. Because I honestly don’t see any reason why the company would borther to spend time making such a mode when they know very well almost 80% of the world with solid arcade competition won’t borther with.
Bottom line is the arcade mode is still definitely the standard in probably every part of the world except US. The decision of whether or not they want to stick with the arcade mode or move to the console mode is really up to them, and it wouldn’t really affect or worsen their skills at all since arcades are pretty much dead over there. If everyone is going to play ocnsole and console competition is going to be the standard, why not try out arranged?
**for no reason other that the rest of the world plays this way i vote arcade mode.
i beleive that impovement in a fighter is a good thing and if snk took the time to listen to what was said and make neccessary correction then great!!! but as snk players its hard enough to get tournies going without cutting out the other countries that play
so if the other players across the globe are playing arcade its arcade but if they switch we should too. i mean think about it, we aren’t the majority when talking snk, so for now to get things going we need to conform.