I think Kiyo would disagree with you af0.
Well, I’d like to see him fight a current Guile who plays the matchup like I mentioned.
You don’t think Japanese Guile’s play in that fashion… we hardly see Kiyo play but still.
I didn’t say anything about how Guiles are played in Japan. Guile just needs to be played like a tank, doesn’t matter if you’re Japanese or whatever. Guy simply has no answers or anything to scare him with. MK tatsu is the only thing that comes to mind, after Nebbiez mentioned it - but that’s not gonna KO him and you’ll have to be in range of his normals.
If Guile decides to play more offensively - that’s when Guy stands a chance - but why would he do that?
lolol. af0 is right. lol. it will be a long time before we see a guy loyalist win a major. recently we have Marq teddy and nice1 that has placed in tournaments. but there are some MUs that are just really really unbeatable/hard-to-beatables in high pressure situations. i feel like guy is the only character in the game with such unstable matchups. they really change as a match goes on. depending on who gets the first knockdown or who has the life lead. and there is where the problem is. guy needs so many changes to make him viable in every matchup. being a guy loyalist is really just setting yourself up for failure later. i have been a guy loyalist for the last 4 years? honestly i dont regret that. guy is the only character that i like and if the game had gone in another direction(thinking game) i feel like he could have been a really strong character pick. he has alot of “cool” mixups but they are all nullified by the same thing which kinda makes it to where the Mixups arent even mixups. causing you to “play like a tank” as af0 put it. now i do understand that if you can make your opponent afraid that the mixups become more useful. but 2 rounds is not enough. lol. 4 isnt even enough. guy is a long set character because with enough time you can really teach your opponent to do what you want them too. (and you can learn them) now everyone can name everytime they saw a guy do well. but those are so few that you cant make them the rule. and the Matchups that are really bad for us are really common for us. lol. guy really needs a strong secondary which is even more work. to be a guy loyalist or even main is a uphill battle that some might find unnecessary.
Not true, Guy isn’t a long set character. For few reasons, they’ll be come adapt to the mixups and realize all they have to do is Downback and react. However you’re making Guile harder than he even seems because your mindset is I can’t do anything to this character like I would every other character and get beaten for it.Your lack of patience in the matchup is what costs you and everyone else that plays the Guile matchup when it comes to acquiring an opening. St.MP may lose to Flashkick, but you can cancel into MP or HP bushin flip to cause Flash kick to whiff. I’m not sure if a max range st.mp is punishable may want to look into that but still. I played against Dieminion once who should have more than enough Guy experience and I wasn’t blown up by flashkick all that much, Making a Guile lose his downcharge makes the matchup much more easier on you, whether you win or lose.
Well Capcom said there going to make one final wave of changes and there still open to suggestions. Maybe we can get 1 or 2 changes before release. 1. Ultra 1 two frames faster start-up since its corner only. 2. Neck Flip +1 stun on the last hit since its already unsafe on block. We may have to go to Capcom Unity for our suggestions.
Cancel st.hp to medium or hard flip? Down fierce with Guile all day. It make Guy’s elbow “priority” look ass. If dieminion wasn’t flashkicking you, doesnt mean Guile can’t. Guile’s air grab is excellent too in this matchup.
I’ll do some testing with the st.MP tonight, if I remember.
Did I say do bushin flip elbow. No. I said do Bushin flip. And watch what he does.
Also for your lack of knowing this most likely. Bushin flip elbow and command elbow have too different hurt boxes both lose to cr.HP but flip elbow has guys entire body as hurtboz while command guy has no hurtbox from his waist down
Guy is definitely not the only character in the game with unstable matchups, and likewise he is far from being the only character who rarely places anywhere in tournaments. Dhalsim, T.Hawk, Blanka, El Fuerte, Rose, Deejay, Dan, Juri, Hakan… there are quite a few characters with bad matchups that can very quickly end up becoming trainwrecks.
I agree with Blooddrunk in that Guy is certainly not a long set character for the most part. Against certain players who use their character in an unorthodox style, you may benefit from a few games to adjust to what they’re doing. But 90% of the time, all you’re doing in long sets is feeding your opponent data they can use against you. Crazy pressure characters like Cammy and Yun, and insanely solid characters like Fei can get away with sticking to what they do best in long sets. I never lose to a Cammy or Yun and think to myself “Wow, he took me by surprise with what he did in that game, I need to adapt to that by doing X, Y and Z.” It’s almost always just a case of I got unlucky in some ridiculous high pressure situation.
But Guy can’t be played that way. He can’t just get in there and hit buttons like a lunatic, and he can’t just rely on being solid as a rock like Fei can. You have to mix up between the two, and in doing so your opponent will find ways to catch you out. A lot of the time, Guy players win because their opponent doesn’t know the matchup properly. In long sets, you are not only teaching your opponent the Guy matchup, you are also exposing to them your tendencies which will more easily allow them to pick holes in your offence and defence.
In other words it boils down to outplaying your opponent. Keeping your bad habits in check and exposing theirs. This may or may not require you to do unorthodox things. Like what you see in top 8s, reading your opponent is the only way you’ll win at that type of level.
I didnt say he was the only character that doesnt really place. im only talking about guys problems. this is the guy forums. dont you think those high pressure situations give those characters an advantage in this game though? I dont agree with you 2, and the reason for that is i dont think you should do things that will get you the easy hit on the opponent. if you are using a “Mixup” that the opponent can learn that quickly then it is only hurting you in the long run. i also think that guy is so hard because any tendency that you have can become a weakness. a weakness that can put you into trouble during your match. guy has to be very erratic and very unpredictable but solid at the same time. thats why i think and will continue to think that guy is a long set character, because if you are better than your opponent you will be able to prove that better in a long set than in a short set against someone who kinda doesnt know whether guy is safe or not and just does things. i try to stay away from gimmicks because guys are so finnicky and easily nullified. you can do that with Akuma and ibuki but i would much rather just beat my opponent with baits and punishes than you get them with something that they havent ever seen before. because that makes you have to come with something new everytime you play and that just unrealistic. because theyve already seen that now so. . . . i personally feel that playing guy “run away” is really strong because alot of his buttons are really good for stopping the opponent from advancing. but when you come up against a character that is better at running until they get that knockdown(which kills guy) he loses. im currently training myself you use the screen 'landmarks" to decide whether to cross up, HP flip, or just jump over so as to stay in the middle of the screen. guys corner game is scary but honestly all of the mixups in the corner are beat by mashing something or the other lol, kinda making it not a mixup at all. because guy cant be played like these other characters is why he doesnt flourish in this game, thats what makes him so “weak” amongst the rest of the cast. guy has all these tools that “have their uses” but the character that can use everything at anytime is just stronger in this game. again i wanna say that i love Guy, i will not be moving away from him because i just cant, i cant imagine not playin guy, but i will play another character to counter guys downfalls. because playing solid and being better just isnt always enough with him. not in this edition atleast. Im very hopeful for Ultra so far. i got to play it at final round and i really think guy is too good 
I already knew that command elbow has better priority - but not worthwhile mentioning when cr.hp stuffs both cleanly.
ALright so I’ve been testing the flashkick against far st.mp. Guy blocks. I’m using the PC version and I don’t trust it but if it’s genuine, then I guess two of the following may be happening:
- Guy is not -4 after far st.MP. (Who has a 4 frame super I could test with?) He’s definitely -3 though.
- Guile’s flashkick is not reaching Guy on reversal, so there’s a frame delay by the time the flashkick hitbox connects and it takes more than 4 frames. I doubt this is the case cos I was doing far MP from really close, just after close MP range, and flashkick has excellent range.
He’s -4 however guile is likely hitting on his 5th frame when his attack reaches Guy at that point.
Dan has a 4 frame super 1+3 Doubt it’ll reach Guy though and Sim as well has a 4 frame. Try those, I’ll keep looking.
I have a question and a point of discussion.
Question: About Ultra frames. I know that if the frame date is 6 (+6) then that means 6 frames before the flash and 6 after. When do those post flash frames occur? Is it immediately after the flash in the cinematic, or after the cinematic?
Discussion: Anyone think mp Elbow drop should be able to hit on cross up? I think it’s depressing that sometimes this move can be done in by the opponent taking a single (usually incidental) step forward, making Guy fall behind them and the Hitbox not reaching.
After the cinematic. The best way to think of it is use Zangief’s super and ultra 1 as an example. They are both 1+0 which means there is 1 frame before the screen pauses and the flash and/or cinematic, then 0 frames when the action resumes. This is why it’s impossible to react to these moves after you see the flash - you can mash a reversal or hold up to jump all you want, there are zero frames so you are definitely going to get grabbed.
As for the elbow drop, it can hit on crossup in certain situations, but I know exactly the situation you are describing. What sucks is that it has landing recovery frames, so you can just throw him as he lands. You will notice this a lot against characters with fast forward walk speed (Akuma, M.Bison, etc.) or characters with a quick sliding normal to go underneath (Dhalsim, Cody, etc.) This normally only happens when you do an instant elbow drop when up close to your opponent, which given how easy the move is to anti-air anyway and the fact that it loses to low profile moves, makes this a bad move to go for more often than not.
Basically the flash frames count has however many frames, basically like how when you do a Super, the activation period slows down the moves frame by frame. During the Flash, this basically happens if the flash is like 6+5, Though many are 0+ or 1+ so not much happens during flashes primarily.
Elbow Drops do crossup, but it’s character specific when it comes to setups and hurtbox enlargements when it randomly happens. Elbow drop’s hitbox is pretty small in this game, though if it were to cross up it’d be a great offensive tool, but in Alpha series it took some finesse to do. I personally would like for to come into the game but given Elbow drops hitsun/blockstun against certain characters it’ll be a bad option, as you’ll normally be hitting them on the top of their head and unless they are crouching you’re getting worked over if they block it.