Kick your sneakers off and relax~ Guy General Discussion Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1501

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding that most Guy players have.  Hell I played Guy since Day 1 of Super, and I believed that till a few weeks ago.

Watching Dakou play Guy has made me realise that Guy players need to fundamentally re-evaluate what a “frame trap” means to them in order to best use Guy’s strengths.

In SF4, the idea of a frame trap is simple- use the threat of a throw to force them to press buttons, then punish the buttons with a counter hit.

This is an iron law that takes root in most of our minds.  The consequence is that when Guy is “in” right in front of an opponent, we feel great, because that’s where we can threaten either a throw, or a block/counterhit string that leads to a Bushin run.  Conversely, the moment we’re out of throw range, we panic a little inside, because we believe that we can no longer force the opponent to press buttons, and we rush to get back “in” or get a knockdown and safe jump that allows us to get back “in”. This mentality leads to Guy players playing in a way that roughly goes “if I’m in, I gotta stay in, or get a knockdown.  If I’m out, I gotta find a way to get a knockdown or get in.  Any other play is sub-optimal”.

The problem with this, is that Guy’s throw range is very short.  This is means that the effective range where we feel that Guy is most threatening is very short.  This leads to very frustrating plays where we spend the entire game trying to get ourselves in a frame advange + point blank situation, only to get reversaled and lose our positioning, then despair and die.

But the truth is, Guy has the tools to force the opponent to press buttons even when we’re way out of throw range.  The tools are called Bushin Run Stop and Hozantou.  The real threat that forces an opponent to press buttons against an attacking Guy, isn’t the threat of a throw.  The real threat, is that Guy can cancel his buttons at any one time into a Bushin run stop or a LP Hozantou to stay close and keep on pressuring.  And the range of this threat is enormous- anywhere within far s.MP range.  Much greater than the range of a throw.

This is where most people will shout “But that’s no good.  Bushin Run Stop and LP Hozantou leave you at minus!  If the opponent mashes a button, they’ll hit you and they’ll be the ones at an advantage.”

But this is exactly what Guy wants- to call the shots with his block strings, and bait a button press.  Stuff like d.LK> walk a bit> TC, or TC> Run Stop > walk back a bit… these are all tools that present the opponent with a 50/50 with every instance- press a button or risk Guy being back in your face.  And if you’re doing it right, its exactly that threat that rewards Guy with the most counter hits, rather than the threat of a throw.

Guy’s strongest threat has never been the throw.  Its the fact that opponents have to press buttons to try to stop him whenever he’s mixing bushin runs into his block strings.

Understanding this, Guy’s frame trap distance, and hence the range where he is threatening increases tremendously.

1502

Do explain…

1503

Few things to note about him. He marvels at Marq Teddy and tries to play in similar fashion, granted I’ve lost to him as well but he seemingly wants to boast about how being offensive all day wins a match as Guy (even as far to take getting 49th at CEO a high mark.) To break down his offense he’ll try to do things in somewhat of a calcuated risk fashion but you’ll notice after a few games he has autopilot tendencies and a big glare notion that he likes to spend his meter accordingly and techs a lot. I’ve seen him use U2 almost primarily in the mirror match and probably in all his matches similar to AceUnlimited (who I must mention techs a lot and abuses focus attack/elbow drop.) One glaring thing about S3ns3i he uses this candid “mixup” a lot. RUn slide FADC backdash into immediate run overhead. Quite honestly almost everyone from TBR uses that mixup. Also noteworthy is the use of immediate and delayed elbow from LP bushin flip. Also if he ever uses Ninja sickle and hits you while you’re in the corner he seems to love this reset for whatever reason. forward j.mp causes a cross up reset but he’s -3. Also for mention it’s better to either use Runslide,MK tatsu or LK tatsu when you use sickle in the corner for meterless damage. Benefits you better since lk tatsu can lead into Super. Work around using staggered cr.lp and lks to blow up his techs, be wary of his U2, if you’ve learned to bait it an EX air izuna throw it out sometimes, but avoid safe jumps as often as you can when he has that ultra stocked or try to get him to use it early if you can if you have a life lead. One last thing, his anti air game is quite iffy. He also likes to jump elbow a lot to try and bait your anti airs.

1504

…The way you do that to people is genuinely scary. You know that right. But I completely see, remember and understand what you’re describing. It did feel entertainingly flashy. Each time he did one of those Teddy-esque tricks I understood why he was going for them and what he was looking to predict. I decided not to jump in the mirror because he was doing so a lot and Nebbiez already showed me way back in a set how Guys cr.mp and cr.mk can blow up his own air game, but he kept trying it. We both went U2. It didn’t help either one of us because he spent 90% of his time in the air anyway and I was restrained enough to avoid mashing buttons when he might go for it.

1505

I’m just an analyst to my own character and a player’s tendency after playing long sets/multiple games. Even in the mirror I just use U1, I rarely use U2 simply because people are aware of what they can do to stop it’s use. That makes you have to get gimmicky or go for risky punishes (focus through a normal or fireball.) Like what most players will likely suffer through even an attempt to improve their game or change their style of play mid game/match. You’re going to have to break bad and old habits, create new strategies, tech and ideas. Not exactly easy to do on the fly hence why you don’t see a lot of Guy players use U2 to anything but a punish ultra for something guaranteed. When something is guaranteed the opponent is likely going to know about it and look to avoid it or stop it.

Not exactly a flaw in Guy’s game primarily since this can be applied to many other characters until the introduction of W Ultra. Sometimes I purposely lose in casual sets just to see what the player is capable of on the offensive and defensive. Then play for a win to see how they react in that sense as well. Only thing you have to primarily avoid is, there’s a casual mind and a tournament mind in every player. Similar to sports, there’s the regular season version of the team… and then there’s the playoff version of that team. Casual will play with not too much care but willing to show the whole package in spurts. Tournament will always play to their ability of themselves and their character, if you can get a read on your opponent in the casual setting it’ll make the more important matches much easier. If you can’t play in casuals, play with a lot of grit, it’ll help you learn from mistakes and learn what a person is trying to do in every situation and gives you the option to see what you could have done and what you could do in the future.

1506

FADC a block string into U2 is something I only use on button mashes and those pressured into blocks. More than anything else I’ve learned that it’s just really good at keeping your opponent jump happy. upto 500 Raw damage on a punish is not too shabby either.

1507

T.Hawk - what do I do against a T.Hawk that is… option select cr.lp, SPD and condor spire? There is one dude who is playing T.Hawk and simply isn’t spamming condor dive to get grabbed

1508

This is pretty much the only problem with T.Hawk. You need to avoid getting into this situation as much as possible. The options you have are:

  • Block the jab then mash EX or LK tatsu to beat SPD attempt. You have to time the mash in between any jabs, but be careful they may bait this by doing jab > nothing.

  • Hold jump back. If he jabs then you will take minimal combo damage but he can’t get a knockdown, which is the main thing to avoid.

You obviously want to avoid focusing or back dashing because either will reset the situation back to you being on the floor and Hawk having the advantage.

My strategy for all Hawk players is to keep away from him outside of SPD range where Condor Dive will be blocked rather than whiffing in front of you for an SPD setup. Then all he can do is jump at you (I find air grabbing works very well because cr. Mp is not always a reliable antiair against some of Hawk’s air attacks) or play footsies with long range slow pokes or closing the space with Condor Spire. The following of Guy’s normals are all great for dealing with Hawk’s ground game:

  • Far st. HP
  • Far st. HK
  • cr. HP
  • Far st. MK

The only time Hawk is dangerous is after a knockdown, especially a hard knockdown after SPD. Many Hawks try to forward dash > SPD so keep your eyes open for that threat. Aside from that, this matchup is pretty easy if you just poke him to death.

1509

So he burns 2 bars on FADC back dash after run slide ON HIT? What a waste! And that crossup jump mp setup after ninja sickle…that’s like anti-tech if it leaves you at -3 lol. If I score a ninja sickle in the corner, I’ll choose from the following:

  • Ultra 1. If I have the meter and damage is unscaled.

  • EX hozanto > HK/EX tatsu. Does big damage if unscaled but may not be worth the meter unless it wins you the round or reclaims life lead.

  • Far st. HK > forward dash. Depending on timing I think this leaves you anywhere from 0 to +2. Can be followed up with back dash, throw or meaty attack depending on how you read into your opponent. Note: the HK whiffs on certain characters like Rose, Cammy, Guy…

  • Early cr. HK so it resets rather than hard knock down. This can be used on the above characters where far st. HK whiffs. If you follow up with forward dash it does a fake crossunder (looks like you will end up behind them in the corner…but you don’t) which I see Marq using sometimes. I like to whiff cr. jab then LP bushin flip. Timed correctly, this can cause a lot of characters’ reversals to whiff and if they either focus or cr. tech, you can grab or beat with elbow drop.

There’s so many ways you can utilise ninja sickle.

…this dude even uses it to board a train (Guy should SO have done this in Final Fight lol)

In other totally unrelated news, I’m getting married in 10 days and my wife has let me wear my Dunks (red and white…naturally!) for the day and there will even be a little Guy mascot on the cake. A Bushin wedding…damn I love my wife! :slight_smile:

1510

He does it on block not on hit. That’s such a huge gap though that its foolish to honestly do.

1511

Yeah that is just dumb man. I actually copy Marq in that situation and either let the focus attack rock straight away or delay it slightly to try and get a counter hit > forward dash > ultra (or max damage combo). Or if they block, get the hell out of dodge and cut your losses. But even that I think is unsafe to mashed 3 frame jabs/DPs. But from my own experience it catches a LOT of good players by surprise.

1512

Yeah it does, I’ve been doing it since Super. People like to press buttons, but i never directly forward dash since its -3 and I always get hit >>;

1513

Ultra Sfiv Guy gonna be any good? Thinking of picking him up.

1514

He won’t be entirely different from 2012, he’s good currently with a few flaws that will be sorted out. If you can play him now, you should be fine come Ultra.

1515

It just feels like I naturally lose the footsie game. With Gief, I at least know that I when I bait an SPD with a neutral jump, I can get a combo off the nj.hp into whatever feels appropriate. The recovery on T.Hawk’s SPD is so ridiculously small I was being Condor Spired before an empty jump reached the ground.

It just irks me to see how easy it is to bait whiffs or blocks out of T.Hawk and Guy simply not being able to capitalize on them.

My heart breaks on the fact T.Hawk can option select condor spire, cr.tech and SPD and block all in one. As long as your TC or BBC is blocked you’re screwed:

TC -> Run Stop -> Grab is beaten by the Spire or Teched
TC -> Run Stop can bait the spire at least but after the punish into HZO, BSK or Run-Slide you’re still in T.Hawk no-man’s-land.
TC -> Bush Flip obviously get’s bopped by the Spire
TC -> HZO has enough hitstun for the SPD command that is buffered after the Condor Spire command to come out over the spire and you will get grabbed outside of an FADC which puts you too far away to actually punish the recovery of the SPD because of T.Hawks back dash. Only EX.HZO is quick enough and far reaching to hit him. Even then, that’s 3 bars you just used for a single raw EX.HZO, and that’s on him having the presence of mind to backdash. if he blocks you then you’re done.
TC -> Run Overhead is bopped by the spire

I’m not saying Guy should have and automatic in but the fact T.Hawk doesn’t even have to read on a block TC is madness to me.

HKDs by T.Hawk are a nightmare by virtue of him doing 1 of 4 fairly ambiguous things which will all do massive damage in the end and lead to another HKD.

1516

I hate to say this but… Zangief and THawk recover at the same exact speed from their SPDs. Only Gief’s Kicks SPDs are slightly either way you can punish every SPD in the game with NJ.HP Minus Guy’s U2.

Few things to note here, Spire takes 20 frames to start up, you can interrupt it, LP Bushin actually shouldn’t get hit and even so, you have the option of MP and HP Bushin. Run slide can be an option there with meter of course since he’s churning he’ll likely be caught standing up. Another thing to mention if you do LP hozanto and jump back you shouldn’t be getting hit at all period, let alone grabbed. Even at that range if they do Spire you can punish it. Another thing you can do is use st.mp instead of TC, Thus causing him to use a different move altogether which could result in SPD.

Also even if THawk manages to gets an LP SPD on you, his ambiguous jumps can be easily telegraphed (I’ve played Native countless times.) I can assure you THawk doesn’t have an unblockable setup whatsoever on Guy and reading where he will be is pretty easy once you notice those setups. One thing I can mention though, Anything THawk has to do will be preemptive at that point.

1517

i know this is off topic but i didnt know who else to ask… i need a website to buy some buttons artwork templates etc… google was no help really… i wanna custom buildup my stick… i have a hori rap vxsa… thanks…

1518

So, character loyalty. After years of playing Guy, I’ve come to this conclusion. Character loyalty is a viable approach to SSF4…but only for specific characters - and by that I do mean the higher tier lists, probably top 10. Guy is definitely not on that list and as such, you can’t afford to be loyal to this character. He will fail miserably at the hands of charge characters like Guile, Bison and a few others, when the players behind those characters understand Guy’s weaknesses and the characters as a whole.

He’s like a dangerous looking blade - all shiny…but if you look closer, it’s a dull blade that won’t cut right.

So what’s the reality? THe reality is that most people don’t see the dullness and keep fighting him in ways that make some match-ups look “possible.” There’s no reason why Guile should ever get KO’d by Guy. I think it’s the worst match-up in the game for Guy, beyond Zangief or Cammy.

If you think I’m trash-talking, then look at these facts:

Far st.Mp is -4 on block, Guile can do flashkick and beat that clean as soon as he blocks st.mp if its within range. 3x cr.lp distance means you’re safe though
Yes, Guy can do the target combo instead, but guess what? That whiffs a lot on Guile. so he can do the flashkick motion anyway,and flashkick will come out depending on the TC whiffing or not. He’s safe.

Far st.mp run/stop - again just flashkick.

Jump command elbow (or any other jumping attack) - nothing to worry about, delay cr.HP that all day. If it’s not working, you’re hitting cr.HP too early.

So what happens when these “tools” of Guy’s are nullified? Well you’re forced to play a ground game using st.MK and cr.MP.
You think SHOULDERS are useful, maybe MP shoulder? Think again, cos at best, you’ll get chip dmg every time, if not be punished for even trying.
You think ex run slide is useful? Think again, cos you’ll just have to guess a sonic boom coming before he even does it, and that’s not a viable winning tactic, even if you get it right once or twice.

You think ex run overhead is useful? Again, guess a sonic boom coming, otherwise it’ll get blocked or even better, Guile can react with flashkick before it even hits.

So enjoy getting backfisted or being hit by sonic booms, while you try and get 60/70 dmg from your st.MK.

I regret not switching to another character earlier.

1519

lol whoa…sodium overload dude! Yeah I know what you mean about Guile, but what you’re talking about here is the neutral game. You have to accept that to beat Guile, you’re gonna spend probably at least half of every round slowly inching forward, blocking or focusing sonic booms. It’s really boring, I know. This is Guile’s only real strength in this matchup, he frustrates you into doing something stupid to try and get around his sonic booms and then punishes you for it.

As you pointed out, MP hozanto, EX run slide and EX run overhead are all too slow to do on reaction to punish a sonic boom. You have to do them early in anticipation of a sonic boom for them to work. However what you can do is stay at a range where you can MK tatsu on reaction, and occasionally use meter to EX run stop through the boom (you will absorb a followup attack like back fist which you can then punish for free). In any event, walking or knocking Guile back into the corner should always be priority #1.

When you get him in the corner, he’s gonna start taking risks to get out. Suddenly his sonic boom game isn’t so effective because he’s got nowhere to run so you can keep blowing him up with MK tatsu all day. So you’ll see him starting to jump and go for random flash kicks, etc. in a desperate attempt to get out. They will normally take the risk of empty jumping over you so if you cr. MP to antiair them, they’re on the other side and can run away to start throwing sonic booms again. I think TK izuna drops are important in this matchup for this reason. Sometimes you might have to do the neutral or backwards jump versions which have quite an awkward input, but it is essential to do whatever you can to keep Guile in the corner.

Another thing to note is if he’s intent on just still throwing booms all day, far st. HP and far st. HK are both great normals to trade with a sonic boom to get the life lead edge back.

1520

Walking Guile into the corner is no easy task. I even tried using MK tatsu but Guile’s hurtbox isn’t that big when throwing projectiles, like it would be for Ryu or Sagat, so that can whiff unless it’s really close. He has excellent normals to push Guy back, if not HIT him back altogether. Not to mention he can also walk forward and press buttons to fight for space. Even in the corner, you can’t afford to mess up, because if he’s out by simply jumping over you, it’s pretty much game over. I’ll try making that my first priority, but I’m sure it’ll cost half of Guy’s life to do so anyway…Guy is still terrible if the only place he can fight is the corner.