sa2 is pretty solid if you know ken. That fucking super does 40-50% life. Combine that with a few footsies and a throw and it should be round. Not to mention that you can combo it in and it fits some of kens gameplay. Its a good super but in the end, sa3 is so much better. The one good thing about sa2 is that it completely stops the opponent from jumping up or @ you. Sa2 is almost impossible to parry.
when I go out of town, i’ll pick sa2 ken every now and then and usually do pretty well w\ it.
I’m asuming that by solid you mean Shitty… It has 0-range. One bar and although it does a loooot of damage your chances to connect it are low. 1st Ken is already a beast close up and Sa3 really gives his mid range pokes the extra “hmph” they need (what’s far standing mp or cr. mk with out SA3 to follow up?) and Ken needs that to get the 1st knockdown. Or are you still using Cr. RH like a noob?
Anyways this thread pretty much sums everything thing about Ken everything else is mind games. Btw, does ex-shoryu have invulnerability frames? if so how much? I don’t use it at all (and shoryu’s not much) at wakeup but it would be nice to know.
Ken doesn’t need any knockdown, he has superior ground game compared too most of the cast. He hasn’t really the need to play a meaty game on his opponent.
Anyways, you seem to misunderstand the idea of SA2. The idea is to make them jump in on you (superior ground game+keep away game), the moment they do that you activate super and tadaa 50%. And yeah, it works really well against the lower class players. But again, SA3 works against any class and not just the lower ones.
Which Street Fighter are you playing? Knockdown is CRUCIAL for almost all the Cast in 3s. The only ones that not need a knock that I can think right now are Yun, Urien and Twelve. And Urien and Yun is because they can fuck you up with launchers but Knockdown is still important to them. Knockdown isn’t just about meaties… its the guessing them in creates. cr lk x 2 super mp-hp supper throw and guess again and sometimes block for scrubby reversals :D.
and that Idea of Sa2 is shit, so don’t call it solid.
I thought it was pretty clear imho from my last post …
Street Fighter revolves around getting a knockdown and pressing the advantage you get from it to win the round. In he Case of Ken his moves that finish in super are:
MID RANGE POKES
far standing mp
cr. mk
CLOSE RANGE
mp-hp
cr.lkx2
Also on wake up you get meaty hp -> super
there is also cr. mp but its more a ‘stuffer’ poke, it has high priority but its mid so no use in wakeup.
+throw games
cr. lk throw, dash bash on the last instant to bait the throw cr.mk super,… etc
You can easily see ken’s options double when close and how do you propose to get close? by dashing while the you pay a hooker to jerkoff your opponent? 80% of the time you need to get a knock down with you mid range pokes and get close to RTSD FTW. 10% Crossover into throw or poke n’ super and then RTSD. And 10% dash throw/mp-hp chain and RTSD
Basically get close and RTSD and the best way to get close is from a knockdown.
Working agains imbeciles is not working, what kind of imbecile is going to jump against a Ken with SaII? that’s even below scrubs, thats kind of in the lobotomized one-armed baby range…
For ease it seems you’re assuming Ken - Ken, so I’ll do the same.
The low-high mixup up close is about as good as nothing. Yes it does work when you got a moron that tries to parry, but even then it’s a 50-50 game. When you have someone that doesn’t even bother to parry, and has his techs down that close up meaty game turns out near worthless. So no, you’ll not be beasting against someone that’s a bit decent.
Now, for far game you indeed are pretty much limited to c.MK and s.MP, yes there still are other normals but each of them is risky in it’s own way. But here comes the mixup invisible to a lot of players.
Say you’re standing at s.MP range, you could do the MP and the c.MK, one out of 2 extremely boring etc etc. But you can also decide to walk back and let your opponent’s MP whiff and do a c.MK XX SA3 yourself. Then there’s the option to backdash your opponent’s c.MK and whiff punish him again with c.MK. With whiff punishes there’s also an option to dash in for an up close mixup. Now say you tried c.MK and it gets blocked, and your opponent returns c.MK, you can dashback and whiff punish again, the alternate option is to parry down. Now if you were the opponent and expect a dashback, you can decide to dash after him and try to attack him up close. The player that dashed back on the other hand can decide to launch s.MP against you to stuff your dash, but risks a whiff(with punish). From here hadouken and jumps can be added to the mix, this is just a small bit of the game posted as an example.
So with that game in mind, would you need a knockdown to get up close? Not at all, if you play that game properly you’re covering the 2-3 times you attempt a dash in with a shitload of other moves. The moment you do dash up your opponent will be mashing the throw button, he’ll do a late s.MP(or c.MK if he’s dumb), backdash, do nothing or jumpback.
So when you play with the dash in ending distances you can leave yourself out of throw range and with the throw whiff you can fuck him up with MP,HP XX SA3. If he does nothing you end up with your meaty game without euhm… the meaty:P
So yeah, not a lot to cover here, dashin b.MK looks really cool when it hits:P The other two are jumpback and dash back, with dashback it’s important that you didn’t launch anything or you will eat c.MK XX SA3. With jump back you could try s.MK, or parry punish if he launches a normal.
The SA2 thing, I said you’d be surprised how well it works, so you can translate it into you’d be surprised about the amount of imbeciles playing 3s:P
This is still Ken related isn’t it? No hijacking here.
I think I was pretty clear which parts where specifically about Ken and no especific oponent assumed, just general guidelines… later in your post it appears you assume that your playing against a ken except for the fact that you talk about using cr. mk when that is a free super if block in mirror match…
That’s bullshit… Ignoring the fact that you left out the overheard(which incidentaly also ends in super) part of the mixup … Uncertain doesn’t mean automatically means 50/50… I’ll introduce you to something the rest of the world knows as probability:
Opponent can block high, block low, tech throw and reversal.
You can hit low, hit high, overhead, throw, bait the throw and block.
(I’m leaving some options out for simplicity’s sake. Just so you get the general idea. I’m also only considering the 100% shits ie. if you bait by dask back and mk and the opponent block high he’ll prolly eat the super but i’m not entering into that level of detail)
if your oponent:
Blocks high (1/4 chance):
hit low, throw hit him 100% (1/3)
Blocks low (1/4 chance):
throw, overhead (1/3)
Techs throw (1/4 chance):
hit high, hit low, bait throws (1/2 chance)
so roughly its (1/4 * 1/3 )+ ( 1/4 * 1/3 )+( 1/4 * 1/2)+( 1/4 * 1/3) = 37.5% to hit the opponent. Of course that’s not a real number as the model left out a lot of analysis for simplicity’s sake but it gets through the main idea: Knockdown isn’t a 50/50 situation.
Also another thing left out of the equation is the damage potential… throws reset the situation and do some damage but eating a super scares the most of ppl so you’ll ppl rarely trying to tech throw and getting thrown up to 5 times in row…
Knockdows favour the attacker and pressures the opponent and when he screws up he’ll prolly get anxious and fuck up more…
This ‘invisible’ game is called zoning and baiting. Zoning maybe difficult Baiting is part of the mind games and its discusion is worthless in an internet forums. To bait you need to read the oponent and you get that from experience not reading a forum. What you can learn in the forums is the basics, what you can punish how to punish, character specific stuff but everything else you have to learn through experience.
Also half the stuff you list there are “one trick pony” gimmicks. Dash forward for them to whiff a throw? That shit would work at most once… Also not all whiffs are punishable… I’d like you to punish a whiffed cr. mp with ken… which btw you can relatively safely spam to stuff dash-ins. But again Zoning and Baiting can’t be learnt in the forums and althogh they give the extra edge you need in matches they have to go on top of a solid foundation… Getting a Knockdown and pressing the advantage for the Win. If you make baiting the primary way to get close your are making it really hard on yourself to get into an advantageous position… So again getting a Knockdown is Crucial in Street Fighter and to Ken.
Strategies that only work against imbeciles aren’t strategies worth learning imho.
what? do you even know how to play street fighter?
i’m tired of reading stupid shit like this. Start making people take a damn entry exam just to be able to register on shoryuken. Stuff like this is getting out of control…
There’s no 1/4th chance your opponent will block high, he’ll only block high if he spots an overhead. I’ve played Mymoza and he simply blocked and tech my entire meaty game, including the overheads and throws. The fact overheads work on your opponent means you’re playing people that aren’t that good, not that the meaty is an effective way to beast. It’s kinda the SA2 strategy thing…
Furthermore, what are you gonna do if your opponent denies you that crucial knockdown? He’ll be punching your life away and then near the end you finally get your knockdown, and you might make a comeback
, except that he’s standing midscreen and will be out of range again after a block and a backdash. Ofcourse you might get the second knockdown, but that one will be techrollable and then a mere backdash places him out of range, where he can still finish the job.
there are only a handful of americans that can actually compete on the japanese level and you’re definetly not one of them. We’re talking about a small percentage of the american pro 3s players.
Overheads work, short short works, throw setups work and tech throw setups for bait works. Thats how you play the fucking game for god sakes.
if mymoza was blocking your shit consistently, it doesn’t mean that they don’t work. It just means that you suck and your setups suck or he’s on another level that you just can’t compete with. If he’s blocking overheads you delay your mixup pattern then try it or delay and go low, if he’s teching throws you give him tech throw bait and punish. BASICS… mymoza is probably used to kens a million times better than yours. Playing top players in the world consistently will beef up your defense.
and if overheads suck so bad, why do the japanese implement them into their gameplay as well as any decent 3s player. Could it be that they DO work? no, that possibly couldn’t be it…
yes, 1\4 mixup game exists. If you don’t know whats coming, you don’t which series to block which means you have to be looking for every single way they can hit you. These moves come out in less than a second and for your brain to constantly keep up that pace is impossible. Eventually, all players will get hit by that broken mixup pattern that is 3s gameplay. wong, daigo, mymoza, keeper, pyrolee, etc… they all get hit by it.
come the fuck on kid. Quit posting or @ least quit posting pointers because you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about.
Gold-Reaver your pretty good at getting people pissed off, you must be a scientologist :lovin:
Are you capable or reading? Wasn’t I clear enough? The % aren’t real nor have an intention to be… it was a model to show you knockdown ISN’T a 50/50 situation… I also said in my previous post that you also need to ponder in the damage, that’s why you can throw a guy 5 times in row… If you suck at doing 3s and do the overhead to o early ‘to meaty’ it and a decent player pwnz you it doesn’t mean overheads suck, it means you do. Wakeup isn’t all about meaty… and if his teching all your throws it means your obvious about them not that throws are always teched… They are a not-high reward low risk move …
Nice theoryfighter skillz, gl using them in a REAL match. You spew so much bullshit I don’t know where to start…
Ken is pretty likely to get a knockdown… sure shitty rounds happen if most of the rounds you can’t get a knockdown well you suck. And of course knockdown doesn’t mean instant damage or FW… but it gives you the upper hand on the round and is likely to turn the round in your favour. Next time try not to argue but putting SPECIFIC situations and saying yeah knockdown suxx00r… when its clear that either A) you suck B) you are playing devils advocate because your ego can’t handle being pwned by a random noob…
So to sum up,overhead, both back + mk and UOH, DON’T suck and hitting a player with it doesn’t mean the player is a noob, you ‘meaty’ them like a noob. And throws don’t suck because you can tech them.
Knockdown is crucial as I have said before and I see no real arguments in your post that say otherwise, just a little theoryfighting about that only proves knockdown doesn’t garauntee damage… which no-one ever claimed to do so and your personal experience about your incapability to press the advantage on knockdowns…
I never claimed mixups didn’t work, it’s just that the meaty situation already has extra attention from a good opponent and that every meaty you try will be blocked(including overheads). Of course you can launch stuff at the block and work from there, or decide to delay to lower his guard, but doing so wouldn’t require a meaty in the first place now would it?
Look, I know you meant well with your post and I’m certain that you have competence in 3rd Strike, but when you get a number of people ticked off, one has to stop and wonder what exactly happened here.
Shoryuken.com is nothing if it isnt an place where you can learn new things, and when you post on here you get peoples honest reactions to what you have to say, so I really think you’re denying yourself an opportunity to improve your game here by not taking into consideration what others here are saying. The fact is, you can only block either high or low. There’s really no contesting this. But, I really believe that saying things like UOH’s and back + MK both suck really demonstrate that these are things that you have not yet learned to incorporate into your game, as opposed to these tactics inherently being useless.
I will grant you that the people here right now have not really framed this in as nice a manner as I am, but if you can get beyond the sting of their delivery, and look at what it is they are technically saying, I believe that you will find an avenue for growth there, because these people are basically pointing at a place that you need improvement in and saying “have you considered the following? ____” Granted it isnt articulated as tactfully, but the weight of what they are saying shouldnt really be tossed out if it means that there is something new you can incorporate into your game.
The whole purpose of an UOH is to punish people who are blocking low at any given moment. Obviously a good player will be looking for this and will expect it most of the time, but it cannot be said that they will be expecting this all of the time. Thats why mixups are so important in this game, by “mixing up” your offense on knockdown, the opponent doesnt know what to expect, and the opportunity opens itself up to try it. In fact, if you anticipate they ARE expecting it, then it means that they are standing up, which in turn means that you can use this to your advantage by attacking low. Of course, if everyone blocked standing up though, then this totally leaves people open to getting c. mk xxSaIII’d or 2 in 1’ed all the time, but then again that wouldnt be very practical, so, to avoid such a thing, people will block low in fear that such a thing would happen. But if everyone just turtled all day, then that wouldnt be very fun, so to punish people for blocking low, Cacpom gave you the UOH to use not only to punish turtlers, but people who anticipate that they will get supered on wake-up.
So one cannot say that UOH’s are useless; nor can one say that just because you werent able to pull it off on an experienced player, that it is useless to do so and UOH’s can safely be ignored. Thats really what people here are trying to tell you.
I said that close up high/low game is about as good as nothing. I never said it didn’t work at all. Furthermore I was talking about meaties, not about when both players are standing ready to do whatever they want.
Maybe I don’t know what a mixup is, but hey, as long as I keep hitting my opponent I’m fine with that. Also, in your concept that you’ve understood since you were 8, it seems you forgot that 2D games generally have SLOW overheads(except Guilty Gear, where they still show a 20 frame start up but appear to be fast), players can spot them if they look for them.
SF3TSguy: Like I said, I’m saying this from a meaty perspective. If the opponent isn’t expecting an overhead there, well, where is he expecting an overhead? I mean, if he doesn’t expect it at all or simply is refusing to guard it, go ahead, spam them, I’d do the same. But there are players who simply see this shit after a knockdown coming, even if it’s the first time you’re doing it after 6 matches. In that context there is no “beasting” after a knockdown.
and sometimes block for scrubby reversals :D.
