Ken General Thread: Go with the Flow

It’s true that i haven’t incorporated offensive dashes ala 3rd strike in my game so you might be right here. But still, you always want to hit confirm that b mp. Risking a full punish by dashing just to end up minus if they block is a bad idea. So, while you can hit confirm it from cr mp if the dash is well spaced, doing st lp, b mp is not worth it IMO as you can’t realistically react to that st lp.

But you really don’t. st mp, cr mk, fb does as much as cr mp, st lk, mk tatsu, it hits crouchers and it even connects from a little further away. The only range where Ken can do more damage with cr mp, st lk, srk where all hits connect is really small. In all other ranges Ryu does at least as much damage as Ken, he covers more distances and has better options with meter. The only thing that Ken has over Ryu in those ranges is post knockdown pressure and only with mk tatsu. You can completely avoid meaty pressure if you quickrise following a srk knockdown, the only reason to use it over a tatsu is damage and only if you are sure all hits will connect.

TC2 is great, it’s probably the only tool Ken has that makes him desirable. But the hk tatsu ender is not something you can do often as it has 16 frames of startup and limited range. Realistically, you only get to do it if a TC1 or a jump in connects. You can’t cancel into it from a light and you can’t confirm a medium and cancel it into it like Ryu can (st mp, st mp/cr hp/cr mk). If you can confirm a medium cancel from a single hit kudos to you but most people simply can’t. As for his srk, i already explained why it’s not as good as it look initially.

As far as Ryu is concerned, i also think that parry is extremely underrated at this point. Most people just compare it to SF3 parries and conclude that it sucks. The difference is that the parry was a system mechanic in 3, so Capcom could afford to make it that good since every character had access to that goodness. In SFV, parry is just a v-skill and compared to other v-skills it has some pretty unique utilities besides absorbing projectiles and single hits:

  1. It cancels into itself so it can absorb multiple hits.
  2. It deals with crossups when srks can’t.
  3. It’s safer than a dp in many ranges.
  4. It’s easier to react with it than a dp. There is no directional input, you just press two buttons and that’s it.
  5. It allows Ryu to punish things that are normally not punishable. This is by far its most important function IMO. Right now it doesn’t seem that way because there is no meta in place, but when the gameplay gets more standardized, a Ryu player will know what button his opponents want to press according to distance and situation. He will also know what punish he can apply if he parries that button.

The deadzone is not small at all, especially now that s lk has been nerfed. But even when he isn’t into it, as long as he isn’t really close to the opponent the damage he gets meterless is mediocre, Ryu can do the same if the opponent is crouching and 50 more if he is standing. TC2 is great but it’s not a cure all.

Well, what can i say, i will be very happy to be proven wrong :).

Hi Forum,

Knowing changes would happen from Beta #2 to Beta #3 and knowing I want to use Ryu upon release, I chose to not use V-Trigger or focus on combos. My focus was placed on how Ken feels, who he pressure works, and spacing. Please let me know what you think overall. I hope you enjoy this video!

Oh, there’s a reason why we’re disagreeing; you can hit confirm his TC1 by itself. You’ve got something like 20f to cancel the b.mp into hp so you don’t need a move to set it up, it’s just nice because the cr.mp is plus so you get a strike/throw mixup on block while you give up pressure if you start with the b.mp and it gets blocked. It’s only -2 so it really isn’t the end of the world if it gets blocked, plus you can cancel into EX Hadoken if you do st.lp -> b.mp to keep the pressure on.

[quote=“KaizenMaster007, post:1402, topic:175767”]

Hi Forum,

Knowing changes would happen from Beta #2 to Beta #3 and knowing I want to use Ryu upon release, I chose to not use V-Trigger or focus on combos. My focus was placed on how Ken feels, who he pressure works, and spacing. Please let me know what you think overall. I hope you enjoy this video!

[/quote]

As someone who is thinking bout picking up Ken as a secondary I like ur approach 2 playing him. U did a few 2 many random tatsus but overall, nice work

Those “random” tatsus worked because Kaizen was fishing for button presses. LK tatsu is 3f up close which makes it pretty damn good for counter-pokes. Those were not random tatsus by any means.

I didn’t realise lk tatsu was 3f thought it was much slower, interesting. But if u cr block, tatsu whiffs doesn’t it?

Lk tatsu used to have a 4 frame startup before beta3, now it’s indeed a 3 frame move. Crouch blocking doesn’t make it whiff since it hits crouchers, but it’s very punishable on block (8 frames disadvantage) so it’s a bad idea to spam it unless you are absolutely sure that the opponent has pressed something you can punish.

Guys do you have any combos after crossup air tatsus (counter hit or not)?

So far I have :

No counter hit :

Air Tatsu - cr.lp xx EX.hadoken - v-trigger - st.hk - lk tatsu - st.dp (or EX.dp).

Air Tatsu - cr.lp xx ex.tatsu

Air Tatsu- cr.lp xx st.DP (or ex.dp)

Counter hit :

Basically the same except you use cr.mp instead of cr.lp. Only difference is you can do a non-ex fireball for the first combo.

Also for the second combo you can regular hk.tatsu.

It seems you can’t do much if you have no ressources. Or did I miss something? If not it’s pretty sad because the air tatsu has some decent mix-up potential on a jump I feel like.

target combos bro, no counter hits required.

tatsu, back mp, hp, heavy tatsu (7hits)

V-trigger:
tatsu, st.mk, st.hk, dp (8hits , good damage | 314)

It’s all down to how deep the cross up tatsu hits. looks like they made it harder to discourage vortex play.
tatsu has to hit bottom half of their body.

Oh ok, I guess I don’t hit them deep enough then, it didn’t seem to work for me. It is indeed kinda hard to hit a cross-up tatsu just right in this game.

yep a lot harder. both work tho, first one is much easier.

Beta 2.00 (or Beta 4, whatever is preferred) changes:

•5MP•

[details=Spoiler]Ken got a hurtbox nerf on 5MP.

Beta 1.08
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt3/A36-5MP-2
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt3/A36-5MP-3

Beta 2.00
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt4/A36-5MP-2

Not only does hurtbox extend more than usual, the hurtbox extension comes out 1 frame earlier…

Thoughts: …can Dictator’s 5MK get a hurtbox extension please? Even if he does keep it as a need/want, whatever, why does this need “more” of an extension? It’s already at a state for counter-poke… it’s ready for that from opponents. Ken’s St.Strong was really a problem?[/details]

•2HK•

[details=Spoiler]Ken receives 4 things. An extension nerf on start-up (before active), hitbox buff during active frames, hurtbox nerf the frame just after first active frame, and hurtbox buff+nerf in recovery frames (lower hurtbox is reduced, upper-body hurtbox is more extended).

Beta 1.08
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt3/A36-2HK-0

Beta 2.00
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt4/A36-2HK-0
http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#cbt4/A36-2HK-6

Thoughts: It’s more of a buff than a nerf imo, so that is good, not sure why this was given though… maybe because Low Forward and Sweep were too similar?[/details]

•Hadouken•

[details=Spoiler](Didn’t test V-Trigger Hadouken… but could be same.)

Now 49 frames of recovery, up from 48 frames of recovery. Now -10 on block from -8. Difference site from Dantarion shows it loss 1 frame of recovery… yet Gilley’s frame data show it was -8 on block. Potentially, it might of received a block/hitstun nerf as well by 1 frame.

Thoughts:

http://i.imgur.com/bvMFquh.jpg

[/details]

Sweep nerf not too bothered, the other two could potentially damage him a fair bit.

Honestly it having a hitbox buff makes it more of a buff. He needed some help on the whiff punishment side. He had the worst sweep in the game. As long as I can whiff punish with it more effectively I don’t really give a crap what else it does.

Ken is now playable on the beta

What the fuuuck no more double hp.srk in the corner during v-trigger

Did they nerf him even more? Is it real life?

You can hit confirm off 3 lights again.

Is it me or did they nerf cr.mp so that it pushes back further making target combo harder to link into TC? I also noticed both when playing as Ken and against opposing Ken’s that even when it DOES link, HK hurricane will intermittently whiff. WTF?

I could do that from 2 T-T

Not gonna play Ken if he stays like this. I was fine with how he was last beta but this is a bit too much :frowning: