If it wasn’t for the game actually dropping in a month I’d say this was worth testing out. It can probably just be put on The List of Ken Fundamentals: against what characters can you do a double cr.mp into Hadoken frametrap and not be punished?
Also, I suspect at anything but point blank a cr.mp xx Hadoken is not a true blockstring, just looking at the frame data. So you can probably just do cr.mp -> st.mp xx Hadoken if they don’t have 5f mediums that reach you in which case you’ll trade in the case of them looking to reversal your ass.
I’m also wondering if the pressure you get after an EX Tatsu is good enough to be worth spending the meter over a HP DP in non-TC hit confirms (so you can’t do HK Tatsu). You don’t have great footsies so being able to just stay in is pretty valuable.
Muttonman, dude. You get pushed out. It doesn’t matter what we’re talking about, you get pushed out. Cr.mp as part of two-stage hit-confirmed sequence doesn’t work. With this or anything else.
Also, if you do standing jab, crouching medium punch, you get pushed out too far to hit-confirm anything. And I’m sorry, but linking into an EX shoryuken only on counterhit because you’ve decided to do crouching medium punch instead of back medium punch is an ass option on a bunch of different levels.
You aren’t understanding anything I’m writing, guy.
If you do a jab, a strong, any normal, anything you do after besides back medium punch will not be hit confirmable. That is why you need to use back medium punch in blockstrings.
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because this doesn’t cut it. The difference between doing a string into a fireball or a string into a tatsu that leads to pressure and corner carry and damage is the difference between winning and losing. If we’re talking about optimal play, then yeah, you’re going to be using back medium punch hit confirms. It’s a fundamental part of the character. Standing jab into tick throw doesn’t work the way you want it to work otherwise.
I mean, you don’t like using back medium punch because it’s minus and you lose pressure? What exactly do you think happens when you do crouching medium punch into fireball?
I literally just booted up the cracked beta and double checked that this is all true because ya’ll are making me think I’m losing my mind over here. I don’t even understand why this is controversial.
All I’m saying is that if you use b. mp as a frame trap, it can be beat, so expect the unexpected
I think we all agree that it is a great move, however, there are some pros and some cons to it, and that was the basis of my post.
Did you not read the part where I said “I do use this blockstring?” You seem to think like we’re saying b. mp sucks. No, I was merely trying to educate you in its flaws.
Keep playing the way you do, whatever flows your boat. I don’t care much if you disagree with what I’ve said. We could discuss match theories all day, but we both know that’s a waste of our time.
b.mp isn’t punishable on block, you just cede pressure as it is -2.
The thing is, I already established that b.mp is the go to button if you’re close enough to string into it be it on hit or block from a cr.mp. The problem is that its range is shit so we’re discussing alternatives for when you don’t start your blockstring within their character model.
also false, you can’t link st. lk off a b. mp counter hit. Your only option is to follow it up with a st. HP target combo, or cancel b. mp itself into a special.
it’s kind of ambiguous what you mean by “use b.MP as a frame trap”
it seems like you’re saying it is a bad idea to do blocked b.MP > (some other normal), and that is correct
but my understanding is that everybody else is talking about using b.MP as the normal which you hope to counterhit with
I don’t play ken, so idk about what you can get off b.MP on CH, somebody said you can get s.LK, somebody else said you can’t, fine, whatever
is there enough hitstop on CH b.MP to confirm into the target combo? if not, is there enough pushback on blocked target combo to go into hadoken (EX if necessary) and safely end the pressure?
b.MP IS the target combo starter. You can confirm it on hit; getting a counterhit is just a bit of free extra damage and stun. Your standing heavies are too slow to work as frametraps so you need to rely on either hit confirming into a TC frametrap or confirming a counterhit st.LK linked into EX DP (which is 19f + whatever extra hitstop a CH gets to press the button).
Assuming the cr.mp is blocked
Point blank you frametrap cr.mp -> b.mp CONFIRM xx st.hp
Slightly further you frametrap cr.mp -> st.lk CH CONFIRM EX DP
Slightly further than that you can do cr.mp -> st.mp/cr.mk/cr.mp xx Hadoken OR st.mk CONFIRM xx st.hk
Your choice of medium button frametrap for that last one depends on exactly where you are and what you think they’ll do. Cr.mp has the least range but leaves you plus on block, perfect for fishing with a sweep or dashing back in. Cr.mk will catch them walking backwards while st.mp has the best hitbox to hurtbox ratio but is a bit slower. St.mk Crazy Kicks target combo is confirmable into the most damage but as slow as st.mp without as good a hitbox as it moves you and your hurtbox forward.
Your job is to play like Makoto; make them fear the super fast dash into mixup. Once they start doing delayed buttons to stop the dash you can hang back and hit them with your slower CCH normals for large amounts of damage.
Oops was thinking of st. MP, my bad. Carry on. :bawling: you saw nothing …
Easier to do that when you have a half screen dash that is like 16f rather then a 1/4 screen one with 15f. He definitely has a bit of SF3 shoto dash factor to him though. I just don’t see how he does that better than Ryu when Ryu also has better normals for deterring people from pressing buttons. Think a big part of him is going to be figuring out when it is best to poke with st. MK and st. RH as they both let him convert in neutral in the right situations.
Ken does more damage on normal confirms thanks to being able to go into HP DP with ease, gets better post-combo pressure from HK Tatsu, and has better anti-air? Ken’s dash is good enough to use off of pokes which is all he really needs. But really, I think the biggest thing with Ken is that his Crazy Kicks is hit confirmable into good damage at a way better range than Ryu’s st.mp is and he gets way more for stuffing a move in neutral thanks to run cancels on his CCH moves. Ken also has the advantage of being able to do a two medium confirm up close thanks to his target combo while I believe Ryu gets pushed out and thus has to cancel the second medium into a Hadoken to convert into damage.
So slightly more damage, better frametraps, and better confirms. In exchange you get a worse fireball, a lack of a long ranged st.mk, no 3f jabs, and a wildly different VT.
I’ll reword this again. You get nothing off of a b. mp counter hit (more specifically, as of beta 3, you cannot link anything out of it, you can only follow it up with a Target Combo st. HP)
The central argument was that b. mp should be used as your go-to hitconfirm
We then explored the move in detail by checking frame data and some match theories
Then someone said, out of the blue, that b. mp was 0 on block
And someone added to that, b. mp on counter hit can be linked to st. LK (supposedly possible in beta 2)
In the meanwhile, we explored Ken’s better block string and counter-hit confirm normals, his cr. mp for instance
I provided video footage of b. mp being used as a frame trap, and showed some punish options for Ryu
Hopefully this will clear some of the confusion some newer readers are having
I really don’t think that b mp has had a range nerf. I’ve checked with both beta versions and what i think has happened is that the cr mp pushback on hit has been increased, so it’s harder to follow it up with back mp. St lk on the other hand does seem to have received a range nerf in beta 3.
I really disagree with that. In theory yes, Ken has a higher damage output. But at which ranges can he actually get that damage? cr mp to TC1 still does good damage even with the nerfs, but you really have to be point bank for it to connect. So the realistic ways to land it are from a meaty cr mp on wakeup, a well spaced jump in and a NJ baited throw. I’d say that’s not alot of chances to land it in a single round. And Ryu doesn’t do half bad himself in those situations with the st mp, cr hp link that forces standing.
But what happens from a little further away, where most hit confirms usually occur in a round? Ken has cr mp, st lk to special. The range is significantly lower than Ryu’s st mp, cr mk sequence and the damage is usually 100 for srk (unless you are very close the first hit whiffs) or 150 for mk tatsu. Ryu on the other hand does 100 damage with st mp to cr mk alone. Sure, if the opponent is crouching he can only follow it up with fb which doesn’t connect at absolutely max range (a distance where Ken can follow cr mp with exactly nothing). But he can still use meter for 225 damage with ex tatsu or 170 with ex fb. Ken’s options with bar when he is in range are ex srk and ex tatsu which result in 207 and 215 damage. So i’d say that Ryu has more options in the most important distance ranges.
TC2 kind of brings it back for Ken in ranges where Ryu doesn’t have options but the fact that he has serious dead zones before it make Ken harder to use IMO. Ryu also has lower peak damage but what he has is better normalized which is usually a plus for a character.
I don’t really disagree, but I think you sell cr.mp hit confirms into the TC1 a little short; you can get plenty by doing a forward dash fake throw, especially if you feel confident in just hitconfirming the b.mp which is a 4f medium button (which is the only 4f medium button in the game assuming the frame data is right) after the dash. Is the pushback too much on a st.lp to link into it as well?
Basically Ryu’s cr.mp -> cr.hp combo is doing about the same as Ken’s cr.mp -> TC1 and at similar ranges. At a bit further away Ryu has a slight advantage as he can do st.mp -> cr.mk but unless you catch them standing you’re going to have a worse ender. Slightly further than that Ryu can’t do anything by Ken has TC2 for good damage. Ken also gets better positioning off his combo enders thanks to HK Tatsu corner carry and the fact that you end up on top of them or how his HP DP knocks down while Ryu’s Hadoken does not. Ryu in term has way better footsies, pokes, and fireball.
Basically there is a deadzone for Ken where Ryu can get damage but it isn’t that huge and his TC2 more than makes up for it IMO. I don’t think Ken’s super awesome in the last build but I feel that he’s a bit stronger than you give him credit for.