Ken General Thread: Go with the Flow

[Peter_Parker]

After an EX Hadou -> VTC, you may also opt for a Dash Forward, cr. HP for a better corner carry combo for the same damage and stun as a st. HK
EX Hadou -> VTC, Dash Forward also enables cr. mp , b. mp -> st. hp combos, although they will deal less damage due to dmg scaling

[Mnszyk]

But hit that disagree button booyssss

http://i65.tinypic.com/2mky04.jpg

Ken has a lot of hard hit confirms. I’m curious what it’ll mean, especially with the online-play/offline-play divide. Both his target combos are hit-confirmable but are you pulling that off online? I dunno.

It’ll come down to if you can hit confirm off ~20-24fs. I think medium hitstop is 12f and cr.mp has a total of 19f with 5f of that as startup. That gives you 24f to confirm the hit and go into either his b.mp or st.lk. His kick TC has something like 22 cancelable frames on hit. Doing two lights in a row gives you something like 9f of hitstop from the first, 4f startup of the second, and then 9f of hitstop to hit the button. So that’s a good 22f reaction there as well.

So basically if you an block an overhead online you can confirm a hit. So get your reactions in order

You don’t understand. You can hit-confirm his back medium punch on it’s own. You don’t need the crouching medium punch. You can delay the cancel.

I was talking about general hit confirms; you’re generally going to want to either do his kick TC at range or his cr.mp up close because it’s plus. Hitconfirming with b.mp isn’t that great because although you get 27 damage, a bit of stun and better positioning thanks to HK Tatsu over doing cr.mp -> st.lk you also end your pressure right there if they block. If you’re close enough you also want to start with cr.mp for damage and staying plus as well on block.

Basically it shouldn’t be your go to hit confirm compared to your other options and while I wouldn’t say it’s high risk it’s still generally not as good of a choice as the others

There’s a pretty huge deadzone where you can’t actually link after crouching medium punch, where your only good option for a hit-confirm is to use back strong. For example, sure crouching medium punch is great because it leaves you at plus on block. If you’re not going to hit-confirm with back medium punch, so what? That’s his best meterless option to frame trap that hit confirms at that range.

Back medium punch is basically your best real meterless hit confirm at a pretty big range. Not using it is giving up a lot.

[Peter_Parker]

But hit that disagree button booyssss

http://i65.tinypic.com/2mky04.jpg

Ken has a lot of hard hit confirms. I’m curious what it’ll mean, especially with the online-play/offline-play divide. Both his target combos are hit-confirmable but are you pulling that off online? I dunno.

It’ll come down to if you can hit confirm off ~20-24fs. I think medium hitstop is 12f and cr.mp has a total of 19f with 5f of that as startup. That gives you 24f to confirm the hit and go into either his b.mp or st.lk. His kick TC has something like 22 cancelable frames on hit. Doing two lights in a row gives you something like 9f of hitstop from the first, 4f startup of the second, and then 9f of hitstop to hit the button. So that’s a good 22f reaction there as well.

So basically if you an block an overhead online you can confirm a hit. So get your reactions in order

You don’t understand. You can hit-confirm his back medium punch on it’s own. You don’t need the crouching medium punch. You can delay the cancel.

I was talking about general hit confirms; you’re generally going to want to either do his kick TC at range or his cr.mp up close because it’s plus. Hitconfirming with b.mp isn’t that great because although you get 27 damage, a bit of stun and better positioning thanks to HK Tatsu over doing cr.mp -> st.lk you also end your pressure right there if they block. If you’re close enough you also want to start with cr.mp for damage and staying plus as well on block.

Basically it shouldn’t be your go to hit confirm compared to your other options and while I wouldn’t say it’s high risk it’s still generally not as good of a choice as the others

There’s a pretty huge deadzone where you can’t actually link after crouching medium punch, where your only good option for a hit-confirm is to use back strong. For example, sure crouching medium punch is great because it leaves you at plus on block. If you’re not going to hit-confirm with back medium punch, so what? That’s his best meterless option to frame trap that hit confirms at that range.

Back medium punch is basically your best real meterless hit confirm at a pretty big range. Not using it is giving up a lot.

I have to agree with Muttonman, you do not want to use back medium punch as your go-to hit confirm when up close. Cr. mp can be linked to st. lk, or even b. mp if close enough. If cr. mp counter hits, you can even go for another cr. mp, a cr. mk, or a linked CA for some nice damage.

standing LP has the same start up as b. mp and is + on block, making it the ideal choice for block strings.

starting your pressure off of a b. mp leaves you at -2 on block, and -7 if you target combo into st. hp. This is a guaranteed punish for any fighter unless you cancel into EX hadouken to make it safe. It makes for a decent tick throw, and a sloppy frame trap, but other wise, it’s pretty unsafe.
Say you jump in cross up medium kick, use b. mp and they block, your only real options are target combo HP, tick grab, or block. If you use it as a frame trap and you’re pressing buttons, be ready for an uppercut reversal. If you opt for a back dash, you can still get hit by a sweep (will crush counter), or any other long range footsie.

[Muttonman]

But hit that disagree button booyssss

http://i65.tinypic.com/2mky04.jpg

Ken has a lot of hard hit confirms. I’m curious what it’ll mean, especially with the online-play/offline-play divide. Both his target combos are hit-confirmable but are you pulling that off online? I dunno.

It’ll come down to if you can hit confirm off ~20-24fs. I think medium hitstop is 12f and cr.mp has a total of 19f with 5f of that as startup. That gives you 24f to confirm the hit and go into either his b.mp or st.lk. His kick TC has something like 22 cancelable frames on hit. Doing two lights in a row gives you something like 9f of hitstop from the first, 4f startup of the second, and then 9f of hitstop to hit the button. So that’s a good 22f reaction there as well.

So basically if you an block an overhead online you can confirm a hit. So get your reactions in order

You don’t understand. You can hit-confirm his back medium punch on it’s own. You don’t need the crouching medium punch. You can delay the cancel.

I was talking about general hit confirms; you’re generally going to want to either do his kick TC at range or his cr.mp up close because it’s plus. Hitconfirming with b.mp isn’t that great because although you get 27 damage, a bit of stun and better positioning thanks to HK Tatsu over doing cr.mp -> st.lk you also end your pressure right there if they block. If you’re close enough you also want to start with cr.mp for damage and staying plus as well on block.

Basically it shouldn’t be your go to hit confirm compared to your other options and while I wouldn’t say it’s high risk it’s still generally not as good of a choice as the others

There’s a pretty huge deadzone where you can’t actually link after crouching medium punch, where your only good option for a hit-confirm is to use back strong. For example, sure crouching medium punch is great because it leaves you at plus on block. If you’re not going to hit-confirm with back medium punch, so what? That’s his best meterless option to frame trap that hit confirms at that range.

Back medium punch is basically your best real meterless hit confirm at a pretty big range. Not using it is giving up a lot.

Is there really that big a dead zone between where you can no longer link out of cr.mp and where b.mp whiffs? If I’m pushed out of link range I generally found myself using Crazy Kicks. They have the same length of time to confirm though so it shouldn’t be an issue; if you can do one, you can do the other

[Mnszyk]

Is there really that big a dead zone between where you can no longer link out of cr.mp and where b.mp whiffs? If I’m pushed out of link range I generally found myself using Crazy Kicks. They have the same length of time to confirm though so it shouldn’t be an issue; if you can do one, you can do the other

If you do a blocked cr.mp, what are you following that up with? You can’t hit confirm off another cr.mp because you’re way out of range of anything. You can do crazy kicks but that move is slow.

Or another basic one: stand jab, back medium punch. That’s a really key tick throw/frame trap set-up. If they block the jab and start mashing buttons, you need to be able to hit confirm the back medium punch and be able to punish them. That straight up doesn’t work without a frame trap off a single back medium punch. imo, it’s pretty important.

Spiderman is missing that it’s not just about what you start blockstrings with, it’s how you continue and end them. Starting with a jab is all well and good. Where are you taking that jab?

[Peter_Parker]

Is there really that big a dead zone between where you can no longer link out of cr.mp and where b.mp whiffs? If I’m pushed out of link range I generally found myself using Crazy Kicks. They have the same length of time to confirm though so it shouldn’t be an issue; if you can do one, you can do the other

If you do a blocked cr.mp, what are you following that up with? You can’t hit confirm off another cr.mp because you’re way out of range of anything. You can do crazy kicks but that move is slow.

fire balls. lol, just keep it simple and clean. if they block cr. mp, you can hit them low with cr.mk, or use another cr. mp. basically anything you want, as you are +2 on block.
now, say you cr. mp, and they block it, then you walk forward, and immediately cr. mp. You just stuffed them trying to tick grab, or pressing buttons, and now they just got counter-hit. Perfect! you’ve got 3 bars and you can now link a Critical Art for some nice damage. or if you’ve got one meter, linked EX DP will also work.

You may even attempt a dash up grab after a cr. mp, if they are holding down-back too much.

Or another basic one: stand jab, back medium punch. That’s a really key tick throw/frame trap set-up. If they block the jab and start mashing buttons, you need to be able to hit confirm the back medium punch and be able to punish them. That straight up doesn’t work without a frame trap off a single back medium punch. imo, it’s pretty important.

yes, I do use this block string. And you are reinforcing what I just said: st. jab leaves you at + 2, so a back medium punch works as a great follow up, as b. mp starts up at 4f. however, you are left at a disadvantage after b. mp at -2.

let’s take your example. your playing the neutral game, tossing some fireballs, then you surprise dash up to their face and do s. lp. You are at + 2 on block, nice! then, you decide to use b. mp. Also nice! it starts up at 4f and the pressure is still on. but wait. you’re at -2 after b. mp. What are your options?

Attempt a frame trap. You decide you’ll hit another jab, as it has a quick start up. Well, too bad for you, your jab just got beat by ryu’s st. jab, or Karin’s cr. jab, which starts at 3f.
You just lost your momentum. If you’re psychic, you could try a raw LP shoryu to catch them jabbing.

Now, if you think they’ll be pressing buttons, you could always hold down back to block.

ok, then what about tick throw? yes, a blocked b. mp leaves you at the perfect frame disadvantage for a grab. But after st. lp, b. mp pushback, you’re just out of grab range, so you’ve got to inch forward to grab them. In the meanwhile, the other guy can try to poke you, sweep you, reversal you, wtv he wants. You’re better off using b. mp as a tick grab after a jump-in, or after a close dash in, as you are at close proximity for an instant Tick-grab.

and lastly, you can decide to follow it up with s. hp, but this target combo is extremely punishable at -7 frames, so realistically, you’d want to cancel this into something safe (EX hadouken). You can opt for a dash up grab, overhead, or sweep after an EX hadouken.

Spiderman is missing that it’s not just about what you start blockstrings with, it’s how you continue and end them. Starting with a jab is all well and good. Where are you taking that jab?

where am I taking that jab? you just said it. back mp, or cr. mp, or cr. lk.
you can even cancel standing jab into a hadouken for a decent block string at max distance. (cr. mp, st. lp -> hadouken)

[Muttonman]

I don’t have the infinite beta running, but can you link out of a CH light into a cr.mp? And does it connect after a blocked cr.mp? If so there’s your frametrap, otherwise you’re fishing with normal canceled into EX Fireball.

Also, Ken’s got a 15f dash; dash throw is a super legit mixup once you’ve convinced them to stop pressing buttons as that’s faster than SFIV Makoto. So I don’t think you’ll have much issue convincing people to press buttons.

I think his pressure game is pretty legit due to that; he needs meter to safely confirm frametraps outside of point blank so he doesn’t have multiple 50/50s for free and his footsies outside of Crazy Kick confirmation range aren’t the best but he does solid, reliable damage and is probably one of the better characters at keeping pressure going with that dash rather than being forced to return to neutral. You’re generally not reacting to the 15f dash in time to get out a poke so they have to either guess you’re going to dash and stick out a button (which you can stuff or make whiff then punish), or take the strike/throw mixup when you do dash in.

So I think Ken’s actually not that bad if you play him super rushdown instead of his previous more footsie oriented versions. That and his sweet sweet cr.hp

[Peter_Parker]

Yes, you can link a counter-hit cr. lp into cr. mp

[LoyalSol]

Yeah I tested with most characters, on counter hit light attacks can go into medium buttons. With Ken you can even do c.LP > Target Combo on counter hit.

[Muttonman]

Just making sure as frame data has been nerfed since the beginning. Is it possible to do cr.mp (blocked), CH jab (st or cr) -> cr.mp or does he get pushed out of range?

[Super_Sonic]

[SkiesOfAzel]

Just making sure as frame data has been nerfed since the beginning. Is it possible to do cr.mp (blocked), CH jab (st or cr) -> cr.mp or does he get pushed out of range?

He gets pushed out of range. You can’t even do cr jab, st jab, st lk if the opponent blocks, the st lk will whiff. You either need to start with a st jab, cr mp and react to the counterhit by canceling the cr mp to s special (hk tatsu works if close), or start with cr mp. Link TC1 on hit, follow with st jab on block. If the st jab hits, st mk is a 4 frame frame trap, so pretty safe. If it gets blocked, st mp is a 5 frame frame trap if you want to press something.

[Muttonman]

Just making sure as frame data has been nerfed since the beginning. Is it possible to do cr.mp (blocked), CH jab (st or cr) -> cr.mp or does he get pushed out of range?

He gets pushed out of range. You can’t even do cr jab, st jab, st lk if the opponent blocks, the st lk will whiff. You either need to start with a st jab, cr mp and react to the counterhit by canceling the cr mp to s special (hk tatsu works if close), or start with cr mp. Link TC1 on hit, follow with st jab on block. If the st jab hits, st mk is a 4 frame frame trap, so pretty safe. If it gets blocked, st mp is a 5 frame frame trap if you want to press something.

Hm, can you link a HP/EX DP after a hit cr.mp if you did cr.mp (blocked)-> cr.mp (hit)?

[Peter_Parker]

Hm, can you link a HP/EX DP after a hit cr.mp if you did cr.mp (blocked)-> cr.mp (hit)?

if it’s counter hit cr mp, you can link EX dp

[Muttonman]

Hm, can you link a HP/EX DP after a hit cr.mp if you did cr.mp (blocked)-> cr.mp (hit)?

if it’s counter hit cr mp, you can link EX dp

I mean, it’s +4 on hit and a 4f startup so I’m wondering if you can link normally or if it just is too far for the first active frame, but that’s good to know for confirming counterhits (which should give you something close to 30f to confirm, as it’s 14f of recovery + 12f of hitstop + whatever extra CH hitstop there is).

But yeah, there’s your basic confirms. Know at what ranges a cr.mp goes into st.lk and b.mp, be able to confirm off a cr.mp CH into EX DP, and probably learn the CCH OS Run. That seems to be the main reaction and execution to learn for Ken as of now.

[Peter_Parker]

a normal hit with cr. mp at near max distance will be too far to link any DP, has to be a counter. fire ball is your best bet for guaranteed spacing and pressure

[Muttonman]

a normal hit with cr. mp at near max distance will be too far to link any DP, has to be a counter. fire ball is your best bet for guaranteed spacing and pressure

Yeah, but I worry about characters that can punish that but it’ll be something to learn the spacing on.

[Peter_Parker]

they shouldn’t be able to punish it if it’s a cr. mp -> hadouken.
cr. mk -> hadouken is punishable

[Muttonman]

they shouldn’t be able to punish it if it’s a cr. mp -> hadouken.
cr. mk -> hadouken is punishable

Not reversal through it, punish it. Unless the pushback is that good that it makes it -4 or better. Basically -5 is EX Legs and Chun super punishable I believe, -6 gets you hit by a lot of cancelable normals, -7 is st.mks and sweeps, -8 is pick your goddamn combo of choice (and the point blank frame advantage on block). I also think Cammy super punishes any cancel into Hadoken at least during B2 because it was 3f point blank and traveled super fast.

[Peter_Parker]

I see

Yeah the push back from cr. mp -> hadouken is decent to get Ken out of sweep range for most chars
Realistically, they shouldn’t be able to punish a blocked hadouken unless you’re within sweep range, like, a b. mp -> hadouken, or st. lk -> hadouken is definitely punishable
If some chars have answers with CA or EX, then aslong as you have the awareness to scope out their meter, and you know their options, you still have ways around getting punished.