Ken General Thread: Go with the Flow

[Sephiroth73003]

There was no assumption man, I said what you said was not true. cr. MK->Fireball isn’t a frame trap … because you can mash in between it.

That is the definition of a frame trap. There is a gap in between.

If i’m -2 and press a 5f button afterwards is it a frame trap? No. You just pressed a series of 2 buttons.

A frame trap is a series of buttons if your opponent mashes anything not invincible in between they LOSE. If they can mash a non-invincible attack in between and WIN it is not a frame trap. A gap is part of a frame trap, but not its defining feature.

Now, by that definition, a cr. Mk -> Hadouken is also a frame trap. Because whatever my opponent presses in between cr. MK -> Hadouken will be beaten. With the exception of invincible moves, as you said.

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou? This is just interesting to me since, I was bitching a lot about that OS I mentioned earlier and if it was truly removed then I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Be much appreciated man. I know farther out you it didn’t work but if it doesn’t work at point blank that means they really did adjust the block stun to make that impossible which is super awesome.h

Ken gets a decent chunk of damage off of a raw cr. mp footsie hit-confirm. If cr. mp is blocked whilst in VTC, I believe you’re still at neutral, so the advantage is still in Ken’s favor. You could grab, neutral jump, back dash to bait the grab, or go for those lights. his VT is really unique in that he can make the most out of his pokes with the forward push from V-TC. Yeah, i totally love this cocky blondie, haha

cr. MP is +2 on block. st. MP I think is neutral, kinda opposite of SF4.

[Muttonman]

Ken gets a decent chunk of damage off of a raw cr. mp footsie hit-confirm. If cr. mp is blocked whilst in VTC, I believe you’re still at neutral, so the advantage is still in Ken’s favor. You could grab, neutral jump, back dash to bait the grab, or go for those lights. his VT is really unique in that he can make the most out of his pokes with the forward push from V-TC. Yeah, i totally love this cocky blondie, haha

Yeah, he gets a toolbox boost in VT rather than a damage boost. Which is more interesting and fun honestly.

[AceKombat]

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou? This is just interesting to me since, I was bitching a lot about that OS I mentioned earlier and if it was truly removed then I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Be much appreciated man. I know farther out you it didn’t work but if it doesn’t work at point blank that means they really did adjust the block stun to make that impossible which is super awesome.h

Normals with 4-frame start-up will trade with the hadouken.

Normals with 3-frame start-up will counter-poke the hadouken.

[Knowyourplace]

you can be mashed by 3 frames jabs thats 1/4 of the cast

[Peter_Parker]

There was no assumption man, I said what you said was not true. cr. MK->Fireball isn’t a frame trap … because you can mash in between it.

That is the definition of a frame trap. There is a gap in between.

If i’m -2 and press a 5f button afterwards is it a frame trap? No. You just pressed a series of 2 buttons.

A frame trap is a series of buttons if your opponent mashes anything not invincible in between they LOSE. If they can mash a non-invincible attack in between and WIN it is not a frame trap. A gap is part of a frame trap, but not its defining feature.

Now, by that definition, a cr. Mk -> Hadouken is also a frame trap. Because whatever my opponent presses in between cr. MK -> Hadouken will be beaten. With the exception of invincible moves, as you said.

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou?

Yes, you can, but you’ll get stuffed by the fireball
edit: o ok, so 3 f jabs beats it at close range
4f trades. shouldn’t be an issue if you cr. mk at max distance. be warned of invincible reversals, however

[Peter_Parker]

Gat daym, 515? i don’t think anyone in the cast can do that much with just a raw CA combo. Well, kudos to u ken

[Knowyourplace]

uhh zangief has more 518 and Necali has one with 543 and Birdie probably but he is broken so i cant test him Nash has some 518 and Ryu 530

[Peter_Parker]

i noticed too, birdie would crash my game. hmmm

[Sephiroth73003]

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou? This is just interesting to me since, I was bitching a lot about that OS I mentioned earlier and if it was truly removed then I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Be much appreciated man. I know farther out you it didn’t work but if it doesn’t work at point blank that means they really did adjust the block stun to make that impossible which is super awesome.h

Normals with 4-frame start-up will trade with the hadouken.

Normals with 3-frame start-up will counter-poke the hadouken.

Ah so the OS still exists just not Ken can’t do it himself … goes cry in a corner.

[Muttonman]

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou? This is just interesting to me since, I was bitching a lot about that OS I mentioned earlier and if it was truly removed then I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Be much appreciated man. I know farther out you it didn’t work but if it doesn’t work at point blank that means they really did adjust the block stun to make that impossible which is super awesome.h

Normals with 4-frame start-up will trade with the hadouken.

Normals with 3-frame start-up will counter-poke the hadouken.

Ah so the OS still exists just not Ken can’t do it himself … goes cry in a corner.

Eh, if you’ve got a hard read on it you can DP or LK Tatsu at least depending on spacing.

[Sephiroth73003]

Since you have the beta 3 hack can you test if at point blank cr. jab can be mashed between cr. MK->Hadou? This is just interesting to me since, I was bitching a lot about that OS I mentioned earlier and if it was truly removed then I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Be much appreciated man. I know farther out you it didn’t work but if it doesn’t work at point blank that means they really did adjust the block stun to make that impossible which is super awesome.h

Normals with 4-frame start-up will trade with the hadouken.

Normals with 3-frame start-up will counter-poke the hadouken.

Ah so the OS still exists just not Ken can’t do it himself … goes cry in a corner.

Eh, if you’ve got a hard read on it you can DP or LK Tatsu at least depending on spacing.

Hm, actually since cr. MK is -3 or -4 does LK tatsu punish the cr. MK also on block?

Thing about the jab defensively was if you have a 3f jab you don’t need a ‘read’ just do it and win or walk away unscathed.

[Peter_Parker]

Close up L. Tatsu is 3 frames on the first hit (knee hitbox), which means it can technically beat an incorrectly spaced cr. mk -> hadou.

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that 3f jabs supremely beats cr. mp -> hadou. You need to be very close for 3fjab to hit, and cr. mk push back is decent enough to get you out of that range. you don’t see many players go for close-up cr. mk into hadou, well, maybe you’ll see beginners do it out of lack of experience.

Ken’s EX shoryu reppa starts up at 4 frames and is fully invincible. It can blow right past cr. mk -> hadou if it is read. I’m sure the other cast of fighters have their own answers for this unsafe blockstring.

Again, reinforcing the notion that cr. mp and st. mp are better used for block pressure.

[Sephiroth73003]

Close up L. Tatsu is 3 frames on the first hit (knee hitbox), which means it can technically beat an incorrectly spaced cr. mk -> hadou.

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that 3f jabs supremely beats cr. mp -> hadou. You need to be very close for 3fjab to hit, and cr. mk push back is decent enough to get you out of that range. you don’t see many players go for close-up cr. mk into hadou, well, maybe you’ll see beginners do it out of lack of experience.

Ken’s EX shoryu reppa starts up at 4 frames and is fully invincible. It can blow right past cr. mk -> hadou if it is read. I’m sure the other cast of fighters have their own answers for this unsafe blockstring.

Again, reinforcing the notion that cr. mp and st. mp are better used for block pressure.

If you cancelled in beta 2 (i thought at max range) the extended hurtbox from the hadouken stance would get counter-hit. It won’t reach if they don’t cancel, but in beta 2 at least it was 100% guaranteed at basically any spacing IF they did cancel. It is basically an OS in case they cancel into hadouken. 100% riskless punish, if they don’t cancel you just whiff a jab and are safe.

In the infinite beta me and a friend played a lot of Ken vs Ken and we both just stopped cancelling at all because it was just pointless to EVER do so unless you did EX. I’m just curious if that dumb OS still exists. The EX was good in the corner though for the link combo’s and being + on block and if you got the CH you got some pretty good damage.

[Peter_Parker]

It does trade against normals at 4 frames, but it’s a trade in favor of the one throwing the fire ball… You may be able to land a sweep if they trade with you. So cr. mk -> hadouken can still be viable. It’ll boil down to character-specific punishes and whether or not they have the ability to punish. I kind of like this change, as it makes for an interesting mind-game within the cr. mk -> hadouken block string

[Sephiroth73003]

It does trade against normals at 4 frames, but it’s a trade in favor of the one throwing the fire ball… You may be able to land a sweep if they trade with you. So cr. mk -> hadouken can still be viable. It’ll boil down to character-specific punishes and whether or not they have the ability to punish. I kind of like this change, as it makes for an interesting mind-game within the cr. mk -> hadouken block string

His jab was 3f in beta 2. It didn’t trade and Ace was saying 3f still win. We are talking 3f jab, Ken got nerfed so he can’t do it. Need to check with a character like Cammy who still has a 3f jab.

[AceKombat]

It does trade against normals at 4 frames, but it’s a trade in favor of the one throwing the fire ball… You may be able to land a sweep if they trade with you. So cr. mk -> hadouken can still be viable. It’ll boil down to character-specific punishes and whether or not they have the ability to punish. I kind of like this change, as it makes for an interesting mind-game within the cr. mk -> hadouken block string

His jab was 3f in beta 2. It didn’t trade and Ace was saying 3f still win. We are talking 3f jab, Ken got nerfed so he can’t do it. Need to check with a character like Cammy who still has a 3f jab.

Eh, unless there was a typo edit he did, he said 4 frame normals.

As for reward on trade, it’s just about anything one would do on a CH St.Jab… nothing fancy. If it was Ryu for example, he “could” do St.Jab CH into St.Strong - Fierce - Roundhouse TC or St.Strong, Low Forward xx Forward Tatsumaki/EX Tatsumaki/Super (could drop either normal or alter if spaced too far). The problem that makes this not so likely is because of properly spaced Low Forward xx Hadouken (not point-blank) being too far away, and what they may realistically get as a counter poke is St.Jab xx Special Move.

[Sephiroth73003]

It does trade against normals at 4 frames, but it’s a trade in favor of the one throwing the fire ball… You may be able to land a sweep if they trade with you. So cr. mk -> hadouken can still be viable. It’ll boil down to character-specific punishes and whether or not they have the ability to punish. I kind of like this change, as it makes for an interesting mind-game within the cr. mk -> hadouken block string

His jab was 3f in beta 2. It didn’t trade and Ace was saying 3f still win. We are talking 3f jab, Ken got nerfed so he can’t do it. Need to check with a character like Cammy who still has a 3f jab.

Eh, unless there was a typo edit he did, he said 4 frame normals.

As for reward on trade, it’s just about anything one would do on a CH St.Jab… nothing fancy. If it was Ryu for example, he “could” do St.Jab CH into St.Strong - Fierce - Roundhouse TC or St.Strong, Low Forward xx Forward Tatsumaki/EX Tatsumaki/Super (could drop either normal or alter if spaced too far). The problem that makes this not so likely is because of properly spaced Low Forward xx Hadouken (not point-blank) being too far away, and what they may realistically get as a counter poke is St.Jab xx Special Move.

His response saying 4 frames trades was to a response of what I said happened with a 3f normal. I’m aware 4 frames doesn’t work now. If 3f still works though the same riskless OS stuff should still exist.

You can still empty buffer lights. I just did cr. jab->LK tatsu every time with Ken when his jab was 3f. No tatsu if you did it right and whiff. Harder then it used to be, but still doable. Just have to be quick. No need to link something. I’d switch to cr. jab->EX Fireball and was able to get a full VT punish risklessly.

Cammy should be able to empty buffer a spiral arrow which should be easier since spiral arrow is a kick special, I’m sure there is other stuff. For kicks you just do 23->LP->6+RH and you should get the OS. Ryu could do 214+LP~MK and should get an OS tatsu punish.

[Peter_Parker]

Ryu’s cr. jab is 4 frames in beta 3

[Knowyourplace]

i warned you i suck at it

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjvhhn-w5RU

[Peter_Parker]

Nice, some good footage of Ken’s optimal combos there
has the st. hk linked to L. tatsu, and also has cr. hp (CC) into his most damaging combos
Thanks for the vid!