First, there are invicible reversals in this game (medium or EX)
and second, most of Ken’s optimal combos already do decent corner carry. L. Tatsu , HP. Shoryu in combination does about 1/3 of carry distance already, if you replace HP shoryu with EX tatsu while in V-Trigger state, then it’s probably 2/3. It’s pretty insane (tested on Brazil stage)
He gets the most damage in the corner with triple shoryus for a nice meterless combo, as well as from his Critical Arts combos from midscreen
I’ve made an optimal combo vid for ken, it’s on page 26. And we’ve just discovered even better combos which Knowyourplace has posted a nice list for. I’ve also left the commands to these BNBs in the comments section on YT
at any distance, cr. Mk -> hadouken is no longer a true block string. if someone has the awareness to punish this, get ready to eat a CA!
standing mp or cr. mp -> hadouken is a true block string even at near-max distance, making his medium punches a great choice for block pressure
the whole combo is not a true blockstring never said it is, its just a footsie blockstring against anybody who has a jab >3 frames
the good thing about this blockstring against said characters is it puts you out of range of a sweep so you can punish that sweep
mp into hadouken is unsafe as fuck if blocked outside ex, Ken doesn’t have many such combos because all his attacks have so much pushback
Yes sir, I know that cr. Lk, cr lp, cr. mk -> hadouken is not a block string
Against any knowledgeable player who knows their footsies, they won’t fall for a whiffed sweep. Rule number one of footsies, know your attack ranges.
Also, you might wanna test st/cr. mp -> hadouken again in training mode: set the dummy to Block First attack only and crouching stance. St/cr. mp -> hadouken at near-max distance is a true block string and has some nice pushback, making it tougher for your opponent to punish your fireball recovery. But, cr. mk -> hadouken at any distance is a loose frame trap, thus, punishable if read correctly. Over all, the frame data on mp is a lot better than his mk, and both have about the same range,making his mp’s the ideal choice for block pressure. Cr. mk still is great for block pressure, cause it comes out pretty quick, and hits low
here’s some frame data for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1976rt8B91PqVCeYJAmcnW1uwVJ0H03QJtV-dJC5ohL8/htmlview?sle=true#
This isn’t true. You can mash cr. jab with almost anyone against Ken’s and get in between. That is why he is saying that string is decent because mashing cr. jab supposedly doesn’t work at that range making it more risky to hit him out of it. No one is saying cr. MP isn’t useful, just he found the cr. MK useful there because it is less risky to do then it normally is.
good analysis Peter, ok cr. LK -> cr. LP -> cr. MK -> Hadouken for people with jabs >3 people can still CA you and Reversal you but this string does hit when blocked and not blocked
and cr. LK ->cr.LP -> cr. MP -> Hadouken for people withs jabs <4 people can still CA you and Reversal you but this string does only hit when blocked
and cr. MP -> Hadouken for True Blockstring people can CA, Sweep or Reversal you after Hadouken (with Ex Hadouken you are safe from everything)
my personal favourite is still the first i mentioned because it hits blocked and non blocked and safe from any sweep
cr. jab won’t hit because the push back from cr. mk puts you at a safe distance from light normals. However, a Critical Art can blast through a cr. mk -> hadouken in-between as this is not a true block string. And Yes, nobody said cr. mk wasn’t useful. Where are you getting these assumptions from? I was making a point that mp -> hadouken is a safer block string than cr. mk -> hadouken. I’ll still use cr. mk like mad, as it is a useful low hitting footsie that comes out really quick
edit: tested EX shoryu reppa against Ken’s cr. mk -> hadouken. It will blast through it as well. So even with one meter, you better be careful spamming those cr. mk -> hadoukens against top players
here you go guys, this is what I was talking about :
Ken doesn’t really have low damage though. Without a jump in he gets ~200 off a cr.mp confirm at most ranges, ~250 at point blank, and ~225 from a crazy kick TC. VTC knocks this into the 300 range and Super pushes him up to the 400s. You’re also getting ~260 if you can confirm a standing heavy into run and high 200s through high 400s on a CCH depending on how much meter you want to blow.
I mean, you’re not doing Karin damage, but you’re doing fairly similar damage to the rest of the cast; more basic hit confirm damage than those with high variability such as Bison. Birdie, and Vega, but less than Cammy and R.Mika.
Looking at it further, your basic meterless damage is pretty high class; the only characters who consistently do more than you are Cammy, Karin, and R.Mika. You basically do the same amount of damage as Chun and Nash with everyone else having BnBs under 200 damage. Ken’s big disadvantage damage wise is that he has trouble ramping up just via super meter; EX moves do not add much damage outside of the corner (and even then you need either a CH confirm or a jump in) thanks to being able to already tack on HP SRK to the end of combos so you need to have a VTC or CA on deck to become super threatening off of any hit.
yeah his damage is acceptable, but his lights into EX hadou -> V trigger does about as much as a medium starter combo, despite having spent more resources. Most his combos carry well in the corner, where Ken’s pressure game really shines. I get that there isn’t meant to be much reward off of lights, but it’d be cool if Ken was, in fact, that one character who could benefit from it the most with the use of his V-Trigger, out of the rest of the cast.
On paper, 13f startup for a normal seems a bit much, but maybe in practice, with correct spacing, st. HK can still be practical.
Right now, I’m just highly anticipating the release of this game so i can play against scrubs online!
There was no assumption man, I said what you said was not true. cr. MK->Fireball isn’t a frame trap … because you can mash in between it. It doesn’t do what a frame trap does. You can still mash stuff like cr. MK from Mika mindlessly after blocking it and not be able to punish her whether you cancel or don’t cancel unless cr. MK ‘nothing’ baits a whiff at that range. I guess it frame traps SOME 5f normals that don’t low profile, but that isn’t really a frame trap imo. Unless this got buffed in Beta 3 which sweet! That is a BIG buff, or it could be just that the 4f jab is to slow to poke him out which in that case … still sad.
I’ll have to check on release but in Beta 2 there was no ‘safe range’ to cancel cr. MK->Hadouken. Even at peak range you could just mash cr. jab after cr. MK and basically OS punish the cancel with 0 risk because of the extended hurtbox of cancelling into Hadouken. There was no ‘cr. MK pushes you back far enough to make it safe’. Him saying cr. jab whiff against cancel into Hadouken in beta 3 is interesting and means they reduced the hurtbox on hadouken or if it really frame traps like you said means there is more blockstun on cr. MK. OR jab nerf removed my OS : (
Again … convincing me they watched this forum because the coolest thing I found was nerfed and the the thing I thought was dumbest buffed. Illuminati are real, the walls have eyes.
and i’am just saying the string cr. LK -> cr. LP -> cr. MK -> Hadouken hits people who block or get hit at the beginning or in the middle cr. MP can’t do this it will whiff when hit
and i know its not a True Blockstring…
I think the confusion started when I said that it was a frame trap. Meaning, there is a gap in between a string of attacks (typically blocked) where you can throw out a move. Tight frame traps are a lot harder to counter hit, but a proper invincible reversal or command grab can beat any frame trap. Cr. MK into Hadouken is a loose frame trap, but because of the push back from a blocked cr. Mk, quicker normals like Light attacks (which generally have poor range) cannot reach Ken. But, as you can see from that video, an invicible CA is quick enough to beat it.
cr. mp -> hadouken is not a loose frame trap. It is a true block string, or a tight frame trap from max distance.
That is the definition of a frame trap. There is a gap in between.
Wait, are you saying that his lights with 1 bar and VTC doing as much as a medium combo is a good thing or a bad thing? Since I think most characters are getting diddly off lights. Chun gets ~210 off a cr.lp if you’re close enough without resources, but if you’re blowing VTC then the only other characters that do similar damage to Ken sans CA are Karin and Nash off a light (Karin has JFL VT Rekkas, Nash has lights into EX Facesmash VTC). So that’s really a point in Ken’s favor.
I don’t think anyone in this game really has bad damage; it’s pretty standardized. Rather your ability to get that damage is what matters.
I gave it some serious thought, and I was probably just doing some wishful thinking. If Ken can convert his lights with one bar of meter and V-Trigger Cancel, and deal about the same damage, if not more, than the rest of the cast (with equal resource spendings), then his damage is already at good balance. There were times, though, where I felt like a certain combo should just hit harder. Must be psychological thing
If i’m -2 and press a 5f button afterwards is it a frame trap? No. You just pressed a series of 2 buttons.
A frame trap is a series of buttons if your opponent mashes anything not invincible in between they LOSE. If they can mash a non-invincible attack in between and WIN it is not a frame trap. A gap is part of a frame trap, but not its defining feature.
Now, by that definition, a cr. Mk -> Hadouken is also a frame trap. Because whatever my opponent presses in between cr. MK -> Hadouken will be beaten. With the exception of close light normals, and quick invincible moves, as you said.
I suspect it’s mainly because he doesn’t seem to get a huge damage boost while in VT which means his peak damage comes from either using VTC or CA. So other characters get the ability to either blow VT more often as they’re 2 bar single use (Nash, R.Mika, Vega, Cammy) or get a large damage boost while in VT (Bison, Karin, Chun, Necalli). Meanwhile Ken is really only getting VT once as he doesn’t build it while in VT and it’s 3 bars, so you have to make your VTC count.
Ken gets a decent chunk of damage off of a raw cr. mp footsie hit-confirm. If cr. mp is blocked whilst in VTC, I believe you’re still at neutral, so the advantage is still in Ken’s favor. You could grab, neutral jump, back dash to bait the grab, or go for those lights. his VT is really unique in that he can make the most out of his pokes with the forward push from V-TC. Yeah, i totally love this cocky blondie, haha