@DelayedWakeUp If you can do Rekka - Rekka - Overhead - crLK - crMP - crMK wouldn’t that allow a loop back into rekka - rekka - overhead? I hadn’t heard her being able to link out of crLK from anyone before you said it.
Ok you didn’t read clearly what I posted so I’ll try again.
In the gif, the chun is mashing jab (I never once said the chun reacted, so we are on the same page here), and it’s clear she got her jab out on the first frame possible once karin cancelled the rekka and the block stun from rekka ended. So we can see that the block stun helped karins overhead cover SOME start up on it. Her overhead animation goes like this, she starts jumping (she is rising), then she reaches the peak of her jump, then she goes on a downward arc toward the opponent and then she hits them. The block stun of her rekka only covers the start up rising portion of the over head, because chuns first frame possible mashed jab stuffed it just as she hit the peak. Karin had not even gone into the descent yet, so what does that mean? The block stun is only covering half of her start up more or less, and karins overhead is clearly over 20 frames of start up, so it’s going to leave around 10 or more so frames for the opponent to press a jab to stuff it, and that’s PLENTY of time to react and press a single button when you are just crouch blocking and looking specifically for it.
Oh you might not have read it clearly, it is a reset not a full combo. The overhead does not ever combo from rekka. So think about it like SF4 Guy doing target combo xx run overhead > cr.lk > St.mp xx run slide
Also cr.lk is shown in the trailer to link into cr.mp, it’s something they highlight specifically and if you slow down that part, the animation of rashid getting hit seems like it combos, doesn’t seem like he resets and can block it.
Like I was saying before, the overhead special does 2 hits and it looks like the first hit connects while she’s still airborne. Long as that first hit can tag crouchers should be quicker than 20 frames. Let me know if you have the answer to that since that will also determine how easily the overhead can catch people.
Either way still not convinced this is Guy overhead territory. Still looks quicker, more useful than that.
I pretty much entirely play offline and most of that these days is GG, so I have no problem assuming people can react to quick moves; I often have to deal with the bloody Millia mixup. But there’s a gap between just blocking and reacting with a jab plus the startup of the jab. I would not be surprised at all to see this being a far less than reliable method. It also looked like that was a frame or two away from being active as her arm was just about to come down. I can believe DPing it through the whole slide the bottom of the stick method so you can also block, but I don’t think that a crouching jab on reaction is going to be that great. What I’m much more worried about is a fuzzying the mixup. As for the backdash, Karin both has moves to hop over the offending limb and if they do mash jab and have two come out (if they chain on whiff) then you may be able to catch the ass end of one.
And I’m not sure why you’re going on about the Rekkas into Rush; it doesn’t combo but rather frame traps because you can easily confirm a hit off the rekka. If it’s blocked, you do the delayed Palm, which I’d bet combos on counterhit into the crossup Elbow (and may also combo on normal hit if they were trying to jump or backdash). Which gives you a crossup that loses to mashed jabs and a slide that beats them.
And no, being at -2 if you have followups that eat button presses can be fairly solid. Like, there’s a whole character in GG based around that (Slayer). Any rekka character that isn’t primarily spacing oriented (and actually uses the rekkas as a mixup tool rather than just a combo ender) also tends to follow this model by putting people in a mixup despite being at frame advantage thanks to the ability to cancel into a second rekka. The point is that it gets them scared of pressing a button so you just throw them the moment they’re throwable (which is pretty much when you recovery). This is part of the frametrap game, which is defined as making your opponent guess throw or strike, not a “frametrap with a throw.” It’s literally the other half of going for the counterhit.
Basically, if RP hits more than 20 frames after it becomes visually distinctive I can definitely see it being jabbed on reaction (although if it’s negative enough for a punish you’ll just want to standblock instead of taking the air reset). If it’s around 19-20 you’ll probably need to be buffering a DP. Below that, especially with jabs going to 4 frames in a lot of cases? Probably not happening.
It doesn’t look that fast tbh, and if it has a sound cue with it (which I think it does) it’ll be about as reactable as Chun’s LK hasanshu.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen that jabbed out; focused sure, but that fills a similar role to a DP except without any buffering needed. It’s also 20 frames I think?
Just heard the stage music for her stage and it is the only one I like so far. Well the waterfall stage isn’t bad, but Karin’s stage music is still better by a longshots
I see what your saying and agree with most of it, but this has been confirmed. You can definitely mash out a standing normal against the grab. No idea if you can do so on reaction, but you can definitely get a jab in between. No one has said anything about the overhead, but it seems pretty quick so I don’t think people will be able to reactively do much about it. Question is the risk/reward ratio worth it on any of the non-overhead options as a jab punish for the hooligan really isn’t a very big punish so it might not be super terrible for trying to snipe someone blocking high against the overhead.
Right … never said anything to you about how a game not being balanced doesn’t mean it is bad. Never happened. You didn’t quote this exact thing then make up shit other people never said in this thread at all. Definitely trolling or have a complete lack of ability to read or remember things. Feel free to be ‘on topic’ and stop ‘throwing a fit’ by explaining why you think a game is terrible if 100% of the cast isn’t tourney viable. Ultra SF4 and Xrd are 2 modern games that are super balanced and still fun, so a game can be balanced and still be good. However, both those draw from the devs having years of experience with the battle system. Getting everything right the first time typically doesn’t happen. So I’d rather have a fun game that gets balanced over time than a boring game that dies 2 months after release then gets made more fun later after the scene has already died like SFxT.
That last gif shown definitely makes it look like if you’re training people to not jab with the other punch follow up options that it could definitely bop someone on the head. Karin mixing in all of the options in the heat of battle correctly, you’re not going to be reaction jabbing everytime. Don’t see it, but we’ll see what happens when more good players and a solid time with her in the beta comes around.
Maybe it’s just me but the overhead out of rekka looked quicker.
Ok be as stubborn as you want, you challenged me to show you whether or not the first hit whiffs on crouchers and when I do you still make excuses to not seeing my argument to having merit.
But for sake of argument if we take out reaction since it seems like a trivial topic for some, what’s stopping the opponent from just stand blocking and doing a delayed jab input? Timed right it will stuff hooligan and overhead, it will block the delayed palm and it will lose to slide. With slide not doing any more then 100 damage, and the knockdown you get isn’t a hard knockdown, but rather you can quick rise or back flip as well as normal rise time, that’s not scary at all. And again, a dp will blow up the whole mix up at any time, and almost every mix up option on block is punishable for more damage then if it had hit. How can you not see this skewed risk reward is not in karins favor? That the real utility is the chip damage/corner carry, and auto spacing tool from the back dash option. Karin with active v trigger isn’t scary because of the rekka enders, she’s scary because she has v trigger and is standing at a distance just outside of your poke range and can whiff punish you, or take a step in and threaten low mk xx rekka xx back dash again. You might even just do raw stand or crouch mk and not cancel into rekka right away while they are blocking to throw their timing off and to accumulate Grey chip, that is also a pressure tool being overlooked.
Idk how you could tell when the overhead from rekka was stuffed half way through, and the second gif shows the overhead in its entirety, and gifs tend to skip quite a few frames
Maybe because I watched a stream of her when she was first revealed and I saw both things performed during matches? As I said though maybe it’s just me I didn’t say it was a fact. I could just be flat out wrong. Sometimes animations can fool you into thinking things aren’t as they actually are. Many people thought for ages that Fei Long’s walk speed was faster than Ryu’s in SF4. They also thought Dan had a floaty jump when in fact his jump arc and speed are identical to Ryu/Ken. This is just due to misleading animations.
BTW in regards to the first hit whiffing on crouchers, I wonder if that is universal or if bigger characters like Birdie might still have to eat both hits. I mean Ryu is hardly a “small body” like Chun or Cammy so we can’t write it off as that. Just wondering out loud if it’s actually flagged “don’t hit crouching” like Cody’s F+HK in Sf4 or if it just whiffs because the hitbox is too high up.
Lastly, in regards to the crLK - crMP link. I did rewatch the trailer and while it looks like it might be a link there is no actual proof it’s a combo as there is no UI to show the combo count. They show her doing crMP xx Command dash - crLK - crLK - crMP xx command dash all in a sequence that looks like it could be a combo but there is no way it is because that would lead to a potential loop or even an infinite.
I’m going to err on the side of believing that crLK - crMP being an actual combo as you claim and that the crMP xx dash - crLK isn’t a combo but I’m just saying that the example you gave isn’t definitive proof and is actually pretty bad due to the way the entire sequence is set up.
If they are stand blocking by default, couldn’t you just stop on the initial rekka and then just do c.MK xx rekka again? the rekka recovers much faster than say the A3 one does.
Well I guess that depends on the opponent and the read you make during the match. If you think they are the type to be able to punish you would obviously stop after the initial two hits or backdash to reset. But some can’t handle the pressure or you want to keep them in the corner. I suppose you can still keep them there with the other two options though.
Delayed was spot on when he said the rekka isn’t scary because of the sheer amount of enders (which does have a bit of variety) but whats great about the rekka is if you block the first 2 hits I get a free you can’t punish or start to assert your will card with a backdash or simply with a stop. Her most dangerous rekka move with be Rekka–>backdash->rekka punish to whatever the hell you want/free damage.
Literally nobody on earth can react in 10 frames
This is what I’ve been thinking. Rekka backdash into cr.mk to catch out whiffed jabs seems legit
I agree completely
Even twitch reactions where you don’t need to actually recognize what is happening and make a decision rather than simply hit a button as soon as SOMETHING happens on screen or via sound you aren’t going to get a 10F reaction time. Average reaction time even to a twitch situation where you don’t need to make any decision and simply need to react to a cue without any other possible thing occurring (such as hearing a sound or seeing a light turn from red to green) that is around ~0.210 and that is ~12F-13F.
I think the fastest human reaction recorded is 0.101 seconds by a world class sprinter who is doing a twitch reaction of simply trying to react to the starter gun going off. That is still a 6F-7F wait. Now if that runner had to recognize that one of three different starter guns had gone off and had to say stand up if the red colored one when off, run if the blue one went off, and lay down if the green one went off you can bet that the reaction time would be significantly slower because he needs to actually process what happened and how to react. If a runner reacts faster than 0.1s its actually counted as a false start so having an 0.101 “reaction” may not have even been a reaction but rather just a very luck anticipation.
If you need to actually make a decision via recognizing she is performing her overhead and not something else there is no way you are reacting less than 15-16F consistently and that is being generous.
http://puu.sh/48rFU.swfGo ahead and give the millia blocker a try. When you see either one of her two overheads hit D however if you hit D on anything besides her 2 overheads you get a fault. Get a perfect 5 in a row 3x and tell me if you manage to get sub 16F average. Most players that took this test get 18-24F on average.
You could potentially speed that up to probably around 16-20F on average via anticipation and recognizing patterns rather than actually recognizing the action happening and reacting to it. However trying to do it with pure reaction + recognition against randomness you aren’t going to get a consistent result below 17-18F even if you are a top player. Hell even the best players in SF4 get caught by Ibuki’s 25F overhead fairly often because they are concentrating on other things they need to react to. People almost always just block Cody doing crLK xx Badstone even though there is IIRC a 19F gap between the two attacks that they could counter you and it’s not like BS can’t be reacted to with it’s 29F startup. Look how often do you see top players get caught by Snakeeyez doing whiff crMK - SPD that’s a 28F move that you can counter him the entire time. Yeah they’ll catch on after getting hit by it a few times but even after the know the spacing he tends to do the attack and knows he does the attack they STILL occasionally will get caught by it. Usually they end up preemptively countering it rather than trying to react to it, beating it by throwing out fast/safe pokes that would beat the crMK if he used it at that range.
Saying 10F is plenty of time to react is bull. 10 is plenty of a window to enter a jab no question but that isn’t a reaction jab that is an anticipation or preventive jab which you can then do something like a delayed rekka to counter because they are mashing or just hitting the button the moment they see anything happen after the first or second rekka.
Well i dont think he meant react within 10 frames. He said that the blockstun is covering half of the animation, so if assuming the overhead is 20f, then frame 1-10 you would be in blockstun (but you can still obviously start to react at this point) and frames 11-20 you would be able to actually press something. The thing is that you have to take into consideration move start up time. I imagine jabs can take anywhere from 3-5f usually. So if you wanted to jab it then you would need to react within 15-16 frames on average. This also assumes that you can react within the very first frame of the animation which is not always the case (which i why i think talking about reacting using a moves frame data is a misnomer). I imagine it would be different if you HAD to stand jab it as well since the first hit would actually hit then, so you would have to react earlier.