Reacting in 15-16F consistently is possible but highly unlikely. Plus with proper use of rekka delays it shouldn’t be that hard to condition the opponent to be hesitant to jab.
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER
Someone actually read my posts clearly enough to see what I was saying. I didn’t say her overhead was 10 frames and that’s plenty of time to react, I said her overhead is at least 20 frames (probably more like 22-25), and when you block a rekka, your concentration can be put towards the canned enders, which crouch blocking will cover everyone except the overhead. BUT the overhead can be stuffed by a crouching jab. And if we analyze the chun Li gif of her stuffing the overhead half way through the animation with her jab coming out first frame possible out of block stun of the rekka, then we know that your still looking AT LEAST 10 or more frames before that overhead would have made contact.
So what I’m saying is you have at least a 10f Window to react and press a jab to stuff a 20+ Frame overhead that is being canceled from a BLOCKED TWO HIT REKKA. yes that is plenty reactable and because the Window to get that jab to stuff it is plenty big, all you have to do is learn the timing for a very late jab stuff on that overhead (now your reaction timing is even more lenient as you specifically go to jab it later in that Window) you won’t even have to worry about getting frame trapped by the other more quicker enders like the sweep or palm
So again to reiterate into simplest terms
Karins overhead (20+ Frame start up) *this is what you are looking to react to
When does this come out so your concentration can be readied to react?
After a blocked two hit rekka and only when V trigger is active for her (VERY Specific)
How big is the Window you have to stuff it with a jab? At least 10 frames
If it’s not clear at this point I’m not going to bother continuing this subject
for a 10f window you might as well be mashing jab then to try to even react to the overhead.
If you mash jab you will stuff it 100%
But a mash jab should lose to slide or delay palm since they seem to be designed as not true block strings to blow that up like a frame trap of sorts. So a delayed jab input should be perfect in only coming out very late to stuff the overhead while blocking the other options since you block them before your jab input would have come out.
To give you an idea of this similar concept, in street fighter 4, go to training mode with ryu vs ryu.
Record ryu doing Sweep > immediate dash forward two times, then a delayed crouch tech as ryu rises.
Now if you play this back, if you do a reversal dp against this set up ryu will block it (ryu hasn’t hit crouch tech yet). If you wake up throw ryu will tech it (because of the large throw tech Window), and if you wake up block then the crouch short from the crouch tech will come out for ryu to maintain pressure
If you’re OSing it instead of reacting that’ll probably get blown up by either a no follow up to heavier button or a backdash to heavier button. There’s also very little reason to try and stuff it with a jab when it seems to be combo punishable on block, so a fuzzy is a better option (although that runs in the possibility of a stop/backdash to low).
@Muttonman
No its not an option select. It’s a reaction to the overhead being canceled from the rekka, and stuffing it with a jab on the last few frames possible that you can stuff it before it hits you. This delayed timing should be long enough that if she doesn’t do the overhead and does a slide or palm instead, those options are much faster then the overhead, that by the time you realize that it’s not overhead, you should be blocking them, so that you can react to the block and go for your punish (if they can be punished). Now if you are saying that you want to blow this up by doing back dash into an immediate sweep or cr.mk, you are assuming that they will ALWAYS do that jab, and that the back dash leaves you in range to whiff punish jabs. The back dash is reactable for someone who is specifically looking for the overhead to do a delayed jab stuff, if they see back dash they won’t hit that jab, especially because the block stun that the rekkas put you in which is what makes the back dash safe, will leave you enough time that you can’t do anything to see her moving away from you. That back dash serves as a DP MASH BAIT, because mashing has no thought involved, your just doing it and looking to react after what ever happens once that dp comes out. I’m talking about training your self to be calculated and put thought into the situation and react when necessary.
The back dash won’t leave you in range to poke (throw out a normal and it makes contact) without taking a small step forward (other then a long range unsafe normal like sweep or something). The back dash leaves you in a spacing where throwing out a poke will whiff, so the person who waits and allows the other person to throw out their poke first so they can then punish their extended limb. This is the perfect range you want to be in, it’s the footsies range karin will excel at, just outside her cr.mk range where she can tip toe in and out of it daring them to try and poke and hit her so she can whiff punish. When the opponent respects it and stops pressing buttons and waits, then you can walk up and poke them with raw cr.mk. This is a really good footsies tool, which now with Grey chip is even better. Poking with the tip of your crouch mk raw on block will create a subtle pushback, that if you stand up, let the stick go into neutral, and the opponent fires back a crouch mk of similar range of their own, it will whiff since your stand hurtbox is more narrow then your crouch hurtbox, and the little pushback from the raw normal on block should help as well, and since you are standing specifically looking for them to fireback a normal and whiff, you can then whiff punish with sweep or cr.mk xx what ever
And now to reiterate on my first post.
Footsies is what karin will win with and what she will excel at. But footsies isn’t something built into a character, it’s a PLAYER SKILL. it’s the constant analyzation of spacing, opponent habits, patterns, adjustments, and snap reactions to whiff punish normals. And with the normals karins been given, she’s perfect to play a predominant footsie based gameplan. Not only that but SF5’s system mechanics are going back to the basics and rewarding footsies unlike street fighter 4. There are no FADC make the best unsafe moves safe mechanics. The overall damage and stun output is actually really good. Missed dps actually give you bonus counterhit advantage on punish. NORMALS DO GREY CHIP. There are no non super chip outs so the final hit must be EARNED. There aren’t any hard knockdowns (except super, which almost all supers space out near full screen, and your super should always be used to kill anyways) and you can alter your wake up multiple ways (no more vortex fighter snore).
This game’s mechanics are going to reward the player who relies on earning damage in the neutral through anti airing, footsies, knowing when to press in for some meaty/frame trap/throw/overhead mix up and when to step out to avoid a dp. You don’t need her rekka enders to be a bulk of that mix up, she has it in her normals, command overhead and throw already. What everyone should be clamoring about isn’t the loss of a counter or command grab (still tho I’m greedy and wish we also had the command grab) but what you should be is how amazing the rekka into back dash is since it auto spaces you into the ideal footsies range for karin, and that you can get that maybe upto 3 times off (2 times for sure) on a small 2 bar v trigger, which means you are guaranteed to get v trigger twice a round since it’s only 2 bars to fill, and our bread and butter combo (launcher into v skill) fills it as well. Shit even taking damage fills it up, and 300 damage fills up 2 bars so on damage alone your guaranteed 2 v triggers a round.
I’ve already addressed the whole jabbable overhead; if it’s more than 21f, then that should be easy (although since it does seem to be punishable on block you should just block it). If it’s less than that I’m doubtful of the casts’ standard 4f jab not trading or getting counterhit with some regularity. If you just say “I’m going to press jab after X frames, which would have nothing come out due to blockstun if Karin did delayed Palm or Slide but will stuff a RP” then you run the risk of having a backdash to poke eating your move (and it does look like she can tag you with her st.hk as it moves forward, perhaps with upkicks, overhead, V Skill, or another rekka as well). Regardless, just blocking seems to be a better answer which is why I think the mixup will probably be delayed Elbow/backdash/throw as a frametrap/bait and whiff punish tool.
The big thing I’m wondering about is how minus her pokes to command dash will be. If I throw out a cr.mk into empty dash I’d bet she’s fairly negative, but what about a st.hp? How tight can you make a cr.mk xx shoulder as a frametrap?
Yeah people understand that. They were just used to Alpha 3 Karin where they could play footsies and use counters, command grab and rekka at all times. Nothing new.
This Karin is just more straight footsies and and occasional rekka mix up and baits when in V Trigger. Considering she does have good walk speed, dash and a command dash she should be able to threaten with neutral throw and counter hit games pretty well.
https://youtu.be/hCwtP2q2n6s?t=15m1s
15:01 I noticed that this dash seems a lot shorter than some other ones ive seen, so just leads me to believe that the different strengths of kick used determine the range. This could lead to the possibility of using it on block and letting the dash finish, but i think it still might be punishable. Could maybe work if you CH people a lot with the tetsuzanko ender a lot and condition them that way. I wouldn’t try it on a character that has a reversal though.
Another thing i noticed is at 15:05 is that the second hit if qcb+K can whiff, so will have to be careful of range when using it as it looks to be very unsafe if that happens, even on the LK version.
Karin play soon:
You keep using this excuse people aren’t reading you clear when you sometimes don’t speak particularly clearly. If there are noticeably more people “not reading you clearly” than those who are, the problem is likely not other people.
As for what you’re saying I still disagree.
Here is how you are laying it out using the currently agreed upon hypothetical frame counts
Rekka - Rekka - cancel to over head with 20F startup. You react to the 20F startup move inconsistently but using pattern recognition you can probably block it a decently often, you’ll still get hit by it for sure every now and then due to simply not being prepared however it’s POSSIBLE to react. However to counter it you need to react between frames 10F->20F. Now if you also take into consideration the startup of a jab (3->5F typically) that only leaves a 4-6F window you can input the jab and you need to react to seeing the overhead canceled from the rekka within 14F-16F. If you have a 3F jab you can have the jab input occur on 11->16F. You leave blockstun on 10F, the jab has to hit BEFORE the overhead hits on 20F or you will trade so doing it on 17F would result in a trade as both attacks would hit on 20F. Same with a 5F jab the latest you can input it is 14F, a 4F window after leaving blockstun. Currently it’s been stated that the input buffer added to SF5 only applies to combos and does not apply to leaving block stun so you can’t use that to try and expand the timing or OS it easier.
Now you are expecting players to easily and consistently recognize the difference between an overhead, another rekka, a slide, and a backdash within the first 14F-16F? Not gonna happen. Note that a cancel wont start to show up until AFTER the impact freeze ends so you can’t add that time to try and recognize which option was gone for. You ONLY have a 4-6F window to input the attack and not trade and you only have a 14-16F window to actually even recognize that it’s an overhead before committing to that jab. 16F is about where twitch reactions occur for most people, recognition and decision making reactions (such as input a jab or stand blocking) are usually 20+. Even you said they could input it as late as 20F due to the fact first hit doesn’t connect that’s still not going to be easy or consistent you’ll find even Daigo gets tagged by Guy doing an upclose Run-Neckflip on occasion because he has to consider other things.
Here are some visuals to help show the footsies range where karin excels at courtesy of Momochi’s day 0 karin
You can see karin is pacing in and out of poke range looking to whiff punish, once she sees ryus stance change into a parry, there is an instant whiff punish low mk xx launcher
Here karin gets poked out of her St.mp > Cr.mp frame trap by ryu throwing out a jab, Karin notices the jab hit at its furthest tip range so she steps back out into the footsies range, sees ryus sweep whiff and goes into the ideal whiff punish with low mk xx launcher > V skill
http://i.imgur.com/7OnVNEl.gif
Again just a perfect whiff punish to seal the round, notice again karin is hovering in that same exact range to be perfecty placed to do so
Here is when that range gets really scary for the opponent, when karin has V trigger activated and they are cornered. With a cornered opponent, they can not move to alter that spacing we have been focused on. At least in the mid screen they can, but once cornered karin controls ALL the spacing, now look how scary that low mk xx rekka is, you can hit confirm the low mk xx first 2 hit rekka and then go into the palm for the ender, and if it was blocked you can block confirm and go into the back dash which puts you right back into that spacing. Note right at the end of this gif, karin does her regular back dash right after the knockdown to go right back into that spacing
http://i.imgur.com/24zD84O.gif
Here you can see that you can easily block confirm it and go into back dash to reset that ideal spacing, which is even more pressuring with the opponents back against the wall. Also note the corner carry the rekkas have even on block is quite good. Unfortunately karin a bit slow on the whiff punishes here to fully capitalize
SIDE NOTES
http://i.imgur.com/aFFHnGa.gif
The corner carry on this non V trigger BnB combo is very good
http://i.imgur.com/PG2Om3d.gif
The damage on this basic hit confirm super combo is also really good
http://i.imgur.com/6T4GsQi.gif
If low mk xx light command dash ON HIT is quite negative like in this gif, then a hard punch normal xx light command dash on block shouldn’t be any better
That may not have been a true whiff punish. Ryu’s parry doesn’t have any startup and is in counter hit state during recovery frames and the crMK wasn’t a counterhit. Not sure what the deal is there, unless they removed that CH state stuff. It does look like a proper punish.
I’m pretty sure I just saw standing jab link from LK upkicks on WSO stream.
If that’s true wouldn’t we have a loop? maybe not an infinite but potentially a loop since you can supposedly combo LK Upkicks from lights.
Thing is upkicks has a range limit on the second hit, so I think you’d have reach problems on the second one.
Not sure what else you could get out of it though, aside from possibly spending meter on EX moves/super.
You asked a question and answered it your self. I don’t genuinely believe you questioned the legitimacy of that whiff punish, since it’s quite common knowledge to anyone who has been following SFV Beta builds that characters are consistently being changed. And that’s something anyone would definitely know if they have read around these forums. You can clearly see that they removed the counter hit bonus on the whiff parry. The parry recovery is quite long, and the added recovery on a successful parry reducing the frame advantage you get on a successful parry combined with a whiff animation that also leaves you crush counterhitable would not be a good option so it makes sense to remove the counter hit bonus if it whiffs.
And in regards to the overhead, I don’t know where you got the idea that “the hypothetical agreed upon frame data is 20 frame start up on the overhead” since that sounds pretty silly come on. Unless capcom wants to upload some 1080p 60fps direct feed karin footage where you could do a ghetto frame data analysis, then we are working off judgment which is subjective, especially when the karin we have now can be entirely different upon release.
And from the looks of that overhead it looks to be in the territory of a poison ex love me tender or a chun Li lk hazanchu or even ibukis f+mk
Combine that with the specific circumstance that we have been looking at, blocked 2 hit rekka, and karin must be in V trigger, it gives the player time to ready them selves and anticipate a follow up, and look for the overhead and react simply with a shift of the stick to stand or a press of a single button, which is plenty reactable for any offline player with a decent skill in fighting games.
If you still don’t think someone could react to something of those speeds (especially the specific circumstances with karins they allow you to anticipate and concentrate)
How about this raw reaction
Even if you want to argue that the ryu may have had the dp input buffered and just had to hit punch as his reaction, that’s still all I’m suggesting with the karin overhead, and this situation the ryu is in is clearly harder since he didn’t have a blockstring to ready him up for it
Maybe Rekkas? Instant Launcher? Take that delicious frame advantage and go for a throw while they’re afraid to press buttons?
Haven’t tracked how the discussion got started, but what’s the use of talking about reacting to overheads? People get hit by regular characters’ overheads all the time and they don’t even get to cancel into those. If someone’s sitting there trying to react, then I get to stop at the first hit and do real mixup. No reason to be worried about a jab air reset.
Oh, sure, you could probably go into rekkas as a punish combo during VT if I saw that right. Outside VT, I dunno though. Might be worth the expense of meter if that’s what it takes to confirm into knockdown.
Also forgot a minor note from WSO: st.short is cancelable, low short is not but can be chained (they had a hard time canceling st.MP so grain of salt.) So I imagine cr.LK st.LK xx special or cr.LK cr.LP st.LK xx special would be the ideal close-range low confirm. cr.LP is also cancelable and was seen comboing into upkicks in that TGS video, but I’m just assuming st.LK is more reliable in range and better damage also.