No I’m sorry if you say you don’t give a damn about what’s being done to balance a game from a company that does pretty well as far as updates and patches go…then you should be playing one of the more recent NRS titles. If you read that post in context you know it’s coming from a place of ignorance and Karin could still be very good in this system.
@Eternal I have no problem with marking posts I don’t necessarily agree with accordingly. I just don’t get the extreme butthurt to the point of whining and marking posts as spam.
Ah well I knew the dude was a flake and a spaz, I won’t waste anymore time on the malcontent.
I think its a little high, knock it down like 5% or so and its fine.
Okay so you think there is potential in her rekkas mix up.
Let’s look at her rekkas branch.
Rekka (let’s assume this is something like -2 on block, safe but negative)
Rekka > overhead (combo on hit, unsafe on block, can stuff it before it hits you)
Rekka > slide (knockdown on hit, unsafe on block)
Rekka > palm (true string, knockdown on hit, unsafe on block)
Rekka > delay palm (built in frame trap?, seems safe on block, doesn’t combo)
Rekka > hooligan (crouchable, easy whiff punish, can stuff it before it grabs you)
Rekka > back dash (bait, lose 50% v trigger)
Rekka > delay palm > all these options again
Rekka > delay palm > cross up (knockdown on hit, unsafe on block)
So from what we can see, if you hit one of these enders, there isn’t much damage, no more then 100-150, that’s not even bread and butter combo damage. The only exception is the overhead since you can link a full combo after. So even if you want to do the guessing game with karins “mix up”, if you guess wrong on a block but just don’t let her get the overhead (so stand block and react to hooligan and jab or duck it) you not really taking much damage, and if you guess right on the block, your punishing her for at least a little more damage since your getting a combo.
Not only that but if you just mash stand jab or a quick mid hitting normal you can negate the whole mix up almost while just surrendering to the slide or delay palm maybe.
And then we went over the whole, dp blows up that whole mix up unless she back dashes, so if you are nice and selective about it you can bait her back dash (to make her lose half v trigger) then dp while she tries to get a final mix up going before it ends.
I mean shit, if you get hit by her delayed palm which then allows her another final ender which doesn’t combo, you can just mash dp since she more likely to do another option then to back dash on hit.
Anyways, the way it is currently designed, just mash stand jab and take the slide for its petty 100 damage, stuff all her other options and let her back dash and drain her shit while giving you room again
Pretty sure you are trolling at this point given nothing I ever said mentioned patches, just that a game can be fun and be balanced if you only consider a smaller subset of viable characters. As long as that number is 4+ games typically remain very interesting from looking at history. My response was an explanation of what he meant as that opinion is actually not an uncommon one from those that have played unbalanced games like the ones I listed for you previous.
Here is the context that I read your post in.
Not caring about balance is not a signed of ignorance. Balance simply not a determining factor on what makes a game good. The provided examples are absolutely busted in character balance department and still great. Honestly, there more to support broken games being better then supposely balanced ones.
Also, who said anything about Karin not being good in this game in particularly? Being pissed at having some useful tools taken doesn’t mean she’ll automatically suck.
It has been confirmed she can link a cr. LK after the overhead ender. If she can combo a special from it then she will get a combo. It is unclear if she can do a cr. LK into any specials, but in old games she could do lights into rekka’s so at the very least she can probably get a rekka which is cancellable into super.
It is unclear if you can mash a jab and interrupt the overhead, if you can I agree there really is no considerable value in the mixup if the low is unsafe.
This isn’t quite correct. It is 8-10% bar to do a Rekka and about 25-30% to do a backdash. Each Rekka Backdash is a maximum of about 40%. Personally I don’t think the Rekka is safe because this move exists. If it was truly safe there is no real reason to use it if you are baiting a DP, but only if you are going to bait normal mashing so you don’t get mixed up afterwards. Both these things would be accomplished by having a rekka with adequate pushback and you wouldn’t have to burn your bar for it. It makes the whole design of the rekka questionable in my mind as if it had adequate pushback it could be an ‘O-shit’ option for if you messed up the spacing, but as of right now there is no way to correctly space it. You just end up close to your opponent unless you blow your meter on the backdash.
Honestly, assuming the slide combo’s the only purpose I see in it currently is that if the d. P hits them because of the gap you can actually combo into a knockdown. The overhead, crossup, and grab enders can’t combo and she can’t do her P option into super from d.P I don’t believe. That leaves only the slide as a combo ender.
If d.P is safe and confirmable then the enders have a purpose. Think of it like this, Rekka nothing is unsafe because of the lack of pushback so you have 2 options Rekka -> Backdash or Rekka d. P. If they get hit by the d. P you go into slide for the knockdown, otherwise you go for nothing and be safe. Going for any ‘mixup’ here really seems to be a gimmick where the opponent expects you to end at d.P. I’m not sure that it is a good design, but that is the only way I can make sense of their current design decisions.
Personally i’d trade all her ender options just to have the slide safe at a range and more pushback. Which given the old style rekka seemed to have a more practical use and be meterless, I’m not sure what this new rekka with its flashy options bring to the table. We need to see someone more competant play her to get a better understanding of her options.
I’m probably the only person here other than R-D that sees potential in her Rekkas (outside of the backdash), but yes I do.
Firstly, her overhead after rekka seems way too quick to be able to jab mash on reaction. You’re just going to have preemptively mash jab which most likely opens you up for delayed rekka or getting counter poked with a longer ranged button that’s spaced outside of the jabs ranges. Especially if the first hit of the overhead can hit crouchers. The overhead is almost on top of your opponent only split seconds after she cancels the first rekka.
Now since you’re most likely not going to be able to jab mash out of overhead on reaction due to how quick it is, that forces you to stand up. The hooligan grab is easy to see if you’re crouching, but if you’re standing preparing for that quick overhead the hooligan grab should grab you out of your standing animation very quickly. If you can even react to it it’s probably at the brink of human reaction. Essentially at that point the overhead becomes the crouch block beater and the hooligan grab becomes the stand block beater. Try to stand up against the overhead, hooligan can catch you. Try to crouch against the hooligan, overhead can bop you.
The backdash only takes away 25 percent V Trigger. So you can burn two and still have about half V Trigger left if you just activated.
If the overhead and hooligan were much slower, yeah sure mash jab would be viable because you could mash jab on reaction. With how fast they are though it looks like you’re going to have to mash jab preemptively and there should be ways to stop someone that you figure is going to mash jab for counter hit into a combo. Which takes that option away and then forces them to deal with overhead/grab. The overhead seems unsafe on block like you said, but with all of her ways to pressure it will still open people up and be worth the risk when people block low too long.
“The backdash only takes away 25 percent V Trigger. So you can burn two and still have about half V Trigger left if you just activated”
Not really cause everytime you rekka it drains about 10% just to clarify.
Everyone has differ opinion so of course can’t force another person to agree. The people wants her old tools back just tweet or post at capcom unity is that simple. As for me even though i don’t agree with capcom decisions i’m going to wait for the beta before giving out feedback.
You’re not very perceptive then. The poster I quoted said they don’t give a ‘fuck’ about balance. Nothing you said even computes as being on topic to what I’ve said is tantamount to throwing a fit. Yet I’m trolling? Please have a seat until you can actually address a balance problem with this game from the onset. Thanks.
You weren’t talking about the game overall because not all of the characters are going to be handled in a way that seems like it won’t take advantage of the game’s general direction. In other words I doubt you were this upset when it seemed as though Nash (another Alpha era character) didn’t have a whole lot of what made him Charlie in the Alpha games. I’m not going to go back and forth with you two over the tone of posts. Atleast own what you’ve said initially instead of trying to walk it back.
Looking at Vesper’s video footage again, it does drain but it’s very slight. He says about 10 percent but even that is too large. It’s clearly more like 5 percent (the most it would be is like 7). You have to squint to even notice the bar go down. Barely anything to adjust your gameplan over. Which means you still have about 40 percent from full bar after burning 2 rekkas and dashes.
If you read the entirety of my 2 only posts you will see I mention several times that the overhead from rekka IS comboable into a crouch short, and that a crouch short is linkable into a crouch mp, and that a crouch mp IS linkable into a crouch mk which is cancelable. I even mention a full on reset combo for stun and kill
And secondly yes the overhead is stuffable, here is the proof
10% for rekkas + 30% for back dash = 40%
But your forgetting the constant drain that is happening, so I’m correct to say 50%, especially if your trying to play footsies and looking for that whiff punish or looking to walk into range safely and then poke on block, there is constant drain, realistically your not getting more then 2 rekka’s and 2 back dashes
As you can see in the gif I posted, chun mashes crouch jab and stuffs the overhead very early in its start up. She is stuffing the overhead before it starts it’s downward arc, so there still is plenty of start up on it. So clearly you can then react and jab it rather then having to mash jab since it is not nearly as fast as you think it is. Secondly, the hooligan is even slower then the overhead, and now that I went back and found the footage of the overhead getting stuffed with a crouch jab, you don’t even have to worry about the hooligan since you don’t even need to stand jab the overhead, and even then since you CAN react jab the overhead, the hooligan with its slower start is even easier to react to.
And if the slide is a true string, you won’t worry about reacting since mashing jab won’t come out if karin slides, and then you punish.
So yea it’s only going to be a gimmick for an on hit reset in its current form, kind of like SF4 Guy’s run overhead reset mid combo
Compared to Alpha the only thing Nash is missing is his flashkick. The guy has a bunch of AAs in this game which softens the blow. Karin lost moves and didn’t seem to gain anything to make up for it.
Do we know that the Rush (just to differentiate it from normal Palm) into Elbow doesn’t combo? I’d bet it does, especially on counterhit.
Also, mashed jab will lose to Rush, Slide, and you may be able to Sway to counterhit it as well.
Sorry what do you mean by rush?
Let’s try using these terms, rekka(first 2 hit), palm, delayed palm, overhead, slide, hooligan, backdash/sway/feint, and cross up palm
Also you would not be able to counter hit a jab with sway since you just reset back into neutral with a back dash. And slide might beat a mashed Jab if it’s not a true string from rekka but you don’t even need to mash jab since you can react stuff the overhead with a crouch jab. So if you are just crouching and looking to react and crouch jab the overhead, if karin does slide which is much faster, by the time you see the slide(since you were looking for overhead) you have blocked it, and then you can react and punish.
The more important thing we need to realize about the rekka’s is that it’s only 2 bars to get v trigger, and our v skill seems quite good, it can be used as a poke and pressure with it while gaining v trigger, it can be our combo ender from the launcher which gains even more v trigger gauge, and it can negate fireballs (no v trigger gauge but that works great for playing footsies and controlling space), realistically you can activate v trigger 2 times a round, and that means your looking at getting at least 4 rekka > back dash pressure on block, which maybe people don’t realize is a built in free chip + spacing tool. The back dash perfectly spaces you to be EXACTLY where you want to stand as karin to whiff punish the opponent throwing out a normal. So you can get free pressure by doing low mk xx rekka (if blocked) xx backdash, (wait for them to whiff sweep or low mk) then whiff punish with low mk xx rekkas > ender
If they don’t throw out buttons and just block then you can low mk xx rekka’s xx back dash again and take the free chip damage. Once you lul them to stop pressing buttons after that back dash since you whiff punish them and they block and give you that chip damage, then you can mix up with low mk xx light command dash > throw or low mk xx rekka xx delay palm which seems like it is safe on block, or low mk xx command dash shoulder (which is safe and spaces out decently too)
I’m talking about the delayed Palm as the Rush, as one word is much simpler. And I’m really doubtful that you can reliably jab the RP on reaction, and you definitely can’t jab the Hooligan on reaction. In addition, if the backdash puts you close to neutral frame advantage you’ll be able to catch mashed jabs with a heavier button.
Also, if the first Rekka isn’t that bad on block you’ll have the option of tick throw if they only want to jab an overhead
the qcf+P~d.P move is an elbow - not a palm - anyway isn’t it? As in reminiscent of the A3 elbow finisher.
Delayed palm doesn’t combo from rekka on hit, and counter hit rekka into delayed palm won’t combo either since rekka is a 2 hit move, the counter hit frame advantage only applies to the first hit of rekka and not the second hit, so there is no additional frame advantage for rekka on counter hit. But if delayed palm lands as a counter hit, and you do the follow up cross up palm, it will combo which it normally doesn’t.
Also reactions are a lot easier when you are specifically looking for something to react too, let’s give fighting game players some credit, we do have good reactions if you are at least a decent player. So if you are crouch blocking the rekka, you immediately know that she can potentially follow up with a set of canned enders, and if crouch blocking beats hooligan, slide, palm, delayed palm, and you can stuff the overhead with a crouching jab, and the overhead being as slow as it is (it looks to be around 20+ frames start up at least) and it’s the only thing you have to zone in on and look for so when you see it you react and press a single button, then yes it will be plenty reactable. Don’t take this offensively but I’m assuming you must play almost entirely online based if you have trouble comprehending the reactionary concept of fighting games, where the online environment makes it almost non existent to whiff punish and react, and you have to play very pre emptively and read based. I mean I don’t expect people online to be sweep punishing and cr.hp xx shinku hadouken punishing full screen dhalsim stand hp’s online like they do offline.
And about the back dash, it looks to be very good, like chun li/rose tier in sf4 in terms of speed and range, and if we use that as a base line, those back dashes have a total frame count of 22 frames. So if the opponent sees you do the back dash (22 frames is plenty for them to see) the spacing that it creates give the opponent no reason to start mashing jab since she’s not even close to be in range. The more likely button that the opponent will press is a crouch mk or sweep since they want a far reaching normal, and this is where as karin you must wait for them to throw that poke out first and have it whiff so you can punish their extended limb, aka footsies 101
And rekka looks to be negative on block for sure, punishable unconfirmed but for sake of argument if it’s -2 or so, that’s not good for tick throwing. A tick throw is when you use a blocked button that is neutral or very slightly advantaged (+1 or +2) and then throw, so that the throw will out prioritize the opponent pressing buttons instead of teching, sort of like a frame trap with a throw. If you try throwing while you are negative, and they press a button (which they would be inclined to do if you are in throw range and negative) it will stuff your throw
Still not convinced from that footage that the Chun Li player is mashing jab on reaction. That definitely looks like preemptive “I hope this works” jabbing. It just looks like a prayer for frame disadvantage or a gap. Not a real read. That jab probably hit her on like frame 8 or 9 of the overhead LOL. He’s simply seeing that he blocked a rekka and going “well something usually comes after this let’s try to hit buttons”.
Her first follow up to her rekka (the palm) is not a true block string and most likely leaves enough of a gap to counter hit someone mashing jab. I really really doubt they created all of these rekkas to all lose to mash jab. The guys at Capcom aren’t geniuses, but they’re not retarded either. They would have made these rekkas with options in mind to stop mindless jabbing.
The first two punch and d+P follow ups after the first rekka seem designed to stop jab mashing. As in you would start pressuring people with the first rekka, and if you see them mashing jab you know that you need to counter hit after your next rekka with the slight gap in the punch follow up or go for another available poke or throw option instead.
Once people find the ways to stop jab mash (which in that video was clearly not done on reaction) then the other high/low/command options should open up. From watching videos if you didn’t mash jab before the follow up you’re going to get tagged by overhead or grab depending on stand or crouch block.