I said you have command dash for the safe, far confirm. Of course you’re not going to do upkicks there. You do upkicks from the chained lights, or whatever stronger normals you used up close. For the far confirm situation you’re talking about, that seems like exactly what the different followups on CD are designed for. It might not be as strong in some ways, but the question is how you’re playing, not how strong the ability is (there’s no guarantee a weaker rekka outside VT would have the pushback you’re talking about. They took it away from Fei, after all - I’d rather not have that.)
If your complaint is entirely with rekkas as a raw poke, I guess there’s nothing specifically like that, but I’m not sure how relevant that is in the sense that it wouldn’t change her playstyle that much. Karin isn’t Fei, you would be poking into rekkas when possible rather than just throwing them out raw most of the time. Sure, it’s possible and not the worst idea you could have, but it would still be dangerous outside of whiff punish situations, considering what other characters could do with pokes. Since you can cancel it from good pokes, it’s usually a good idea.
Especially in SF5, if you were expecting a special move to be your primary poke I think you might have come in to this with unrealistic expectations at the least. No one else in SF5 focuses that much on one thing in neutral, so focusing on her ability to cancel pokes into safe confirms is a reasonable approach to me.
I don’t have expectations. I am stating a simple fact. There is no complaint. She will not play like A3 Karin. That is not a bad thing necessarily.
You asked me to counter your argument and I pointed out how her most important options that defined her play style in A3 no longer exist and she has no substitute. That is literally all that happened. Anything else is you reading into it. I have some complaints with the current direction of the game, but none of them were expressed in these posts other than stylistically I think it is odd she doesn’t have options as essential to her character as Hadouken is to Ryu without meter. No one has said she will be bad or good. No one knows.
I’ve heard you say that you think she won’t play that way, but we’re talking about why.
The primary purpose of that post was to question the idea that being able to stick out a raw rekka or not is really relevant to the discussion. If anything, the fact she doesn’t need to do that is one of the most notable differences between her and other rekka characters.
It seems like such a weird point to worry about for someone who played the character that I didn’t even think of it until you pointed it out specifically. I’ve always been talking about confirming pokes into specials.
Rekkas aren’t just confirming pokes into specials though. They’re forward moving specials where up until the last part of it, the player decides whether to continue or to stop and do something else and it’s something both players need to be thinking about based on spacing/whether it hit or not/etc. Not having to commit to the entire thing beforehand and being able to interrupt the recovery as part of the decision making is a very distinct thing and there’s more incentive to try it in neutral. That is not what her command dash or Mujin Kyaku are. Her overhead special sort of has this decision making thing involved, but it can’t be confirmed from light or medium attacks and of course there’s the being in the air/longer startup thing, so that’s not a fully functional rekka either. The only thing that actually functions and retains the playstyle of her rekka game… are her rekkas and they’re locked behind v-trigger, so no, I’d say she doesn’t play the same outside of v-trigger.
I’ll still try her and put some time into her, but right now Chun Li is looking closer to the character I’ll be playing more often and retains more of the feel of the character outside of V-trigger (Karin would’ve definitely taken priority if she was more like the A3 version). Maybe that feeling will change, I don’t know. I might even like her more if the V-trigger mode was swapped with what she does outside of v-trigger (with the strength and properties of the special moves adjusted as necessary).
Speaking of which, does she still have her regular specials in v-trigger? None of the inputs overlap, yet I don’t recall seeing anyone do anything other than Guren-Ken specials when in V-trigger (again I haven’t seen all of the match footage, so I’m not sure).
You can still do all her other special moves in V Trigger. It’s just since you’re dying to use the rekkas after you activate V Trigger, people probably just go auto pilot with the rekkas and forget everything else.
As far as Karin herself, like I told the Vega players that couldn’t deal with him not being charge, it’s a new game and there’s always new characters. SFIV Ibuki was changed less than this and I couldn’t handle it so as far as being adjusted to a certain way a character works is understandable. Still, give her a shot and if you end up liking the new way she plays that’s great. Either way she’s going to gain a lot of new fans with her new style and I’m sure new options will be opened up with her revamped V Trigger based rekkas.
It’s not as if you are stuck doing a regular special cancel into scissor kicks or hadoken or spiral arrow or anything like that. The way I see it you pointed out two things. One: the ability for the user to continue or stop the move. Two: both players interact on how you will interrupt or not interrupt the move on offense and defense.
My statement was that you have point one via command dash, and point two via upkicks. With upkicks, you have to commit to it ahead of time, but the decision-making for your opponent is the same as it would be during a rekka, and since this is the version you use at close range after confirming it from lights or from medium links, that need for pre-commitment should become a non-issue for the most part. With command dash, your ability to stagger after the safe followup is limited, but that’s pretty much in line with actual rekkas late in SF4’s life. They made continuing past 1 hit a pretty bad idea if it wasn’t already.
Then we got into the whole discussion about raw rekkas, and that showed a clear difference of opinion between him and me of what defines a playstyle. Personally, I don’t think your playstyle changes just because you are confirming into your special from a poke all of the time instead of most of the time, but this becomes subjective.
If there’s something I’m missing here, let me know. From my perspective, if Capcom’s goal was to split the idea of a “rekka” into two separate moves which are used in different circumstances, what they produced is very well in line with that idea.
Notes: yes, you can still use the other specials during VT. I wouldn’t be surprised if you can juggle into rekka somehow, and we’ve also seen EX shoulder crumple into rekka. When you want a combo that costs meter and isn’t super I would assume you’d mix them together.
Just from a non Alpha 3 relating stand point, this SFV Karin looks very fun to play so I’ll definitely be messing with her once she hits a beta or the game launches.
One way or another it looks like more freedom than you get with anyone else on the roster that I can tell. I like that there are a lot of unanswered questions.
Honestly if Urien in, with that Aegis V trigger, if he has a good V-Skill the nightmare might be real :3
I’m really looking forward to getting in with some Karin, it’s been so long.Her normal hitboxes are looking crazy and I’m curious if sMK really isn’t cancellable or if people just not been doing that from being used to not being able to cancel sMK. cMK being cancellable more than makes up for that if true though.
I’m curious if anyone has seen any evidence to her normal command dashes being immune to projectiles, read about it from some tgs impressions but have seen no footage to confirm it, I’ve seen its recovery get it , I’ve seen ex go through but never seen it able to be timed that way.
Man I am hype for this girl, even without them counters and command grab :3
I’m pretty damn certain s.MK won’t be cancelable anymore. It’s very rare for a character to have a strong cancelable standing and crouching poke of the same strength. It’s usually one or the other.
I’ve seen her rainbow overhead special go through projectiles so that’s another option there.
Aye that one is already great, but was mentioned in the same impressions bit. I have no fear of fireballs between that and ex dash apparently doing it. Just wondering if capcom was as insane to go, “you know what we hate zoners, lets make sure karin is always their death, so now we can add sim and have no fear he can be counterpicked”
I’m just really interested to play around with her combo theory. I want to know how the followups to an EX Dash differ from the regular ones (does EX Launcher do something special? Can you get a grounded combo continuation off of EX Shoulder?), what your followups to a Launcher outside of VT should be (V Skill? One of the heavier upkicks? Does RP juggle?), the positioning you get off various Rekka juggles (as you can do a full Elbow Rush juggle instead of just Palm Strike), the damage difference between Palm Strike and Slide enders, if counterhit MK upkicks leads to anything, so on and so forth
I mean as in having both a powerful/long ranged cancelable standing medium poke and a powerful/long ranged cancelable low hitting poke. Which at least for the cancelable low hitting normal tends to be a kick or in rarer cases a low hitting punch.
Like for example, in 3rd Strike Ibuki’s s.MK is her main cancelable poke and in offset her c.MK while it’s a good poke does not cancel (in second impact c.MK just did her slide and she didn’t even have the c.MK poke). Makoto is similar as well. s.MP can be cancelled, but her c.MK while a really good poke can not be cancelled and doesn’t even hit low. She has no alternative cancelable low hitting poke.
SFV Chun is the same. f+MP and s.MK are strong mid range pokes but don’t have cancel properties. Which then her c.MK can be canceled and hits low so that becomes her main cancelable poke.
In general having a long ranged standing and a long ranged low hitting poke that are both regularly cancelling into specials is pretty rare. You either get one or the other based on the play style they want you to have. With that trend I really doubt Capcom said “let’s let Karin keep her cancelable s.MK and ALSO give her a cancelable long ranged low medium kick”. It’s very likely that they have decided to switch the properties to push her neutral game in a different direction.
Yeah I’m used to the situation of sometimes returning characters won’t retain the same feel of their previous iteration to my liking and there will be new fans who will adopt and be more open to the new version than the old fans will (like me and the SF4 version of Chun compared to 3S Chun players who really didn’t like the changes or game engine). I liked Ibuki a lot too and always played her on the side, except that playing Ibuki in SSF4 actually just led to some bad habits and me not playing her the same in 3S as I did before SF4. I kind of ended up dropping her in 3S since Ryu was my main anyway and I wasn’t bound to SF4 habits with him.
Slightly off topic, but your username is also an example of this type of thing going on with the Tekken series. The transformation they made with Jin in T4 was very drastic and I’m not sure how everyone else received it, but I was cool with it. But I liked even more when they brought DJ into T5 to represent the style of Jin closer to what people were used to pre-Tekken 4. Same thing can be said for Jun/Asuka and quite a few other characters in Tekken with counterparts that represent the older version as well as the new. We could go on forever with examples (Kyo/Iori/Yuri from KOF, Soul Calibur 5 kids, etc), but I guess this time I was just kind of hoping they wouldn’t deviate as far with Karin since I was requesting her for years with the old version in mind. Like I said though, I’ll still put time into her and maybe even end up liking it more. You never know.
Not that I’m trying to make a huge deal out of it. Just stating what I feel are fundamental differences in the A3 moveset/V-trigger rekkas and what she has outside of v-trigger. The command dash I’d put more in line with Guy’s command dash from SF4 both in pressure and confirmation style. I play Guy as a secondary and this is the vibe I’m getting from this special move. Generally, you’ll never go for the followup unless it’s on hit due to unsafeness and the spacing aspect of her rekkas, where you are chipping away from max range and hard for the opponent to punish, isn’t there either. Empty command dash cancelled from a normal is more often than not going to leave you point blank (and mostly likely pretty close to neutral on block) and that’s a factor to how you and your opponent behave. From there, it’s usually the fastest normals, throw and invincibilty that comes into play. There’s a lot less time to decide whether you will do something or not. Usually you just have to do something or your pressure is effectively over.
With Rekkas, chipping from optimal range it’s either a safe blockstring or timed in such a way that your opponent shouldn’t want to press any normals until the rekkas are over or it’s obvious that it can’t be canceled into the next part of the rekka anymore. And something like an invincible DP to interrupt that kind of timing is even more of a hard read than if they were right next to you because the rekka user doesn’t have to worry about any of your other options. So ideally, the rekka will keep pushing the opponent to the corner and chipping him on block without fear of being punished except by the fastest of ranged moves (usually only reversal supers or fast forward-moving specials… like rekka… fit this bill) and you’ll also be at a good whiff punishing range when applying that pressure (usually with another rekka or good buttons). Then with Karin, there was the added element of the high/low/counter mixup with her rekka followups.
The committal nature of the upkicks is also why I don’t agree that it matches that style. There’s no followup decision for you to make that interacts with your opponent’s behavior, the hit-confirm is entirely before the special and it doesn’t look like it can spaced where it’s safe enough that you can threaten to keep doing it. All it does is make your opponent decide whether to continue blocking (High) or if they should attack after the initial upkicks (which I’m not sure if they are safe or even at enough of an advantage where you can continue pressure). Also, if there’s no gap in the heavy version and it’s punishable and if the medium version can be stuffed by normals in between the gap, then that isn’t similar to the way your opponent has to deal with rekka pressure at all really. It’s just a special that you shouldn’t use that much outside of hit-confirms at that point.
The overhead special is ruled out for me because of the way it starts… very telegraphed and easy to respond to. Also it lacks the spacing aspect that changes the way decisions are made that I described above (which V-trigger Rekkas may also lack to some degree compared to A3 Karin). You can still go for a mixup, but it’s still closer to the point blank style mixup than what the rekka decision-tree is like… fundamentally different in such a way that I just don’t feel she will play the same or even similar until she gets the v-trigger.
Yeah I remember Tekken 4 Jin. I still messed with him since Jin was my favorite character. I liked that he transitioned into a more traditional Karate which was built into the storyline after I believe he was fed up with father/grandfather and tried to separate himself from them. Instead of EWGF he had JFLS which was pretty damn powerful in its own and had that trademark blue flash whenever you landed it. I do like the more traditional Jun/Aikido moveset borrowed Jin/DevilJin though.
Ibuki didn’t lose any of her moves outside of super arts, nor did makoto or dudley. People may have been mad that they weren’t that good in SSF4 when they first came but they weren’t mad at them taking moves away from them. SF4 was a different game so they were going to play different but they didn’t strip anyones core moves away from them.
Also you’re talking like people aren’t happy with Karin just being in the game. I"m over joyed, but that does not mean people have to get over it. We haven’t been able to play karin yet I still as a whole don’t even like this V trigger nonsense in this game at all because I know some characters are V trig are going to be useless.
I won’t be completely happy until I play the game myself and I can see how the meta in this game is going to be. You can argue about her losing counters or whatever I don’t really care about that, but I still think locking her original rekkas behind V trigger was a mistake and not a good decision.