Strong visual design, a popular personality archetype which pops off the screen, and one of the most enjoyable toolsets for playing. I’m surprised she took this long to show up again honestly
She should’ve been in at least as early as SFxT. That was a no-brainer and they neglected to include her with Sakura. People were saying they could never get the rights to use her, but now that she’s in SF5, I wonder if that’s the real reason or what changed to make that happen.
Well we all know Sony’s wallet is backing Capcom/SF5 really hard, which is absolutely awesome.
IF there was a contractual issue with bringing Karin back due to character ownership - money talks - the individual made bank and agreed to let Karin be used.
Not saying that is the case, but in most cases when the proper $$ signs are thrown around people have a tendency to do oblige.
I’ve always thought she was unique in her moveset and had/has a cool look.
I do hope they show off those legs in an alt though…they are so well modeled…lol
License issues change from day to day.
I joked around that the owner of Karin deemed SF4 unworthy of having her. So SF5 is the real deal!
Yeah I think Sony is a big reason why the cast looks so awesome (new character and returning ones). They are likely sparing no expense, wanting the game to be as awesome as possible. I think this means less clones, and more diverse interesting designs.
Nash is different yes, but as long as Bison has buttons and Knee press, his core gameplay is intact. Psycho Crusher has never really been a core part of his game, it’s just been a special he has. The only game it could have possibly been considered core gameplay in was CE, thanks to a block infinite iirc.
I’ve never seen licensing issues mentioned as anything other than fan speculation. Japan’s IP laws are typically very similar to the US, and Sakura Ganbaru! was almost certainly work for hire, with none of the joint ownership issues Strider has. Masahiko Nakahira is not very obviously credited in the games as Moto-Kikaku is, and Evil Ryu (and I think the Satsui no Hadou, but definitely Evil Ryu) is also Masahiko’s creation.
That’s arguable really considering that I believe fast walk speed is a key part of Bison’s core gameplay. Slowing Bison’s walk speed to nearly the level of Makoto’s pretty much kills the fundamental gameplan he used to have. He doesn’t have overheads or command grabs so getting you off block or chipping you down like he does in ST or CVS2 without any walk speed is going to have to be done with different moves and mindset when he’s not in V Trigger. When he is in V Trigger I would say he’s more relevant to an anime character like Slayer than anything Bison used to be as well. With that slow walk speed and the heavy pushback on +block normals, it seems telegraphed dash in throws are pretty much going to be his only viable throw option normally.
Scissors being safe on block is also a key aspect which I hear they have again added negative frames to on block. Which if true that means even LK scissors may be unsafe on block now.
It reminds me of SFIV Ibuki. She has all of her special moves but fundamentally she is in a completely different game and her hit boxes and frames are constructed completely differently from 3S making her still a completely different character. EX kunai no longer being a forward momentum starter like in 3S already changed her gameplan from the air greatly compared to 3S.
The only characters I could say still use their general core gameplay during most of the match is Ryu, Chun and Cammy. Everyone else you literally have to rewire your brain to play now. Which is exactly why V Trigger Bison’s potential hasn’t even begun to be unlocked yet and Vega is going to take a long time to fully realize as well. Vega no longer being a charge character, having 2 different stances, a dodge, a command grab and a V Trigger projectile that he follows really shakes him up as well.
R.Mika only has what…like one special move she used to have that wasn’t really good in A3? Then in V Trigger can basically call assists like Marvel or an anime game? She’s pretty much new as well.
You have your valid point, but it still hurts for us, toolset fans, a little. May be you’re Bison player, and it hurts for you to lose footsies, but Ibuki gained insane vortex and mixups in sf4, so who knows, how Bison will be played like.
So let’s see what Karin lost.
- Lost ability to Guren Ken without V-trigger (this is main signature move, like hadoken for Ryu, and rekka for Fei).
- Command grab is missing -
- Command dash.
- now has invincible reversal (?)
- Lost Chuu (elbows)
- Lost counters.
May be I missed something here as well.
But noticing, that seemingly Karin lost not so much, she actually changed a lot of her followup tools, such as:
- (Guren Ken) Lost safe mujinkyaku ender
- (GK) lost Chuu along with standalone move
- (GK) lost her counter followups along with standalone moves.
- (GK) gained ability to backdash after GK first two hits (in expense of the heavy chunk of V-meter)
- (GK) has crossover ender now
- (GK) Has overhead ender.
- gained command dash with juggle followup (+plink version)
- shoulder followup
= (+) Mujinkyaku differs for each button strength version. - Ressenha is now qcb+P and has 2 followups.
Unchanged (kinda):
- Grounded normals
- Movement speed
Now Karin probably don’t feel as similar to Alpha 3 version, and she is actually most requested for her movelist from Alpha 3. (unlike Bison, which, according to Ehubs article has most similarity to Alpha 3 version, not saying anything myself).
So what is the main point? There is no point rly, I just wanted to show her drastic change on paper and obviousness of game approach difference.
Fans wanted one kind of Karin, and received different Karin, not bad one, but not very familiar and requested one either. Goodness of new Karin makes me feel wrong feelings, as I can’t bash Capcom in any ways, but I still wanted a little different thing from my demanded character.
Now probably she has worse distant wiff-punish and corner carry with GK lost and with V-trigger opponents are more aware + it unknown if raw GK is safe on block. May be Mujinkyaku LK is safe at some distance, so it can be used instead of Guren Ken. Can’t say anything about gameplan before I touch game.
I hope there will be changes to Guren Ken at least, but I will adapt anyways, since she’s still seems like very interesting character.
P.S. I’m not good player in any ways. No, I didn’t play SFxT.
You have safety vs. variable followup mixup from mujinkyaku, and you have safe far confirms into more damage from command dash. Those are both the things a rekka gives you. What’s missing there?
Even Bison has unsafe scissors now, so everyone who had a one-track playstyle can’t do it anymore. With Karin, it seems like they wanted to give you tools that still do the job at a lower power level, but would still be useful during VT.
I was an Ibuki player in 3rd Strike. I more
so had first hand knowledge with how she was changed in SFIV. I mained both Viper and Ibuki in SFIV for a bit, but then stuck with Viper after I realized Ibuki just didn’t play much like the Ibuki I was used to. Her footsies and flow from 3S were completely gutted.
What you explained is how I felt about Ibuki in IV. Her footsies got changed up too much for me, but they created a new style for her that other people ended up liking. Which is fine and nothing I went up in arms about. She still had fans and just found a different character that I continued to like for a while until Marvel 3 hit (when I got bored of SFIV and dropped it).
Never mained Bison but I used to play a lot vs Jeron, Alex Valle and other top players who regularly used him in ST and CVS2 and you can’t really use any of that tick throw footsie style mindset with the new Bison. He’s a lot more of a tank now when not in V Trigger. Scissors is now said to be more unsafe which doesn’t help. Hes maybe a bit like Alpha Bison as far as how his normals and projectile work, but with weak walk speed and scissors still isn’t much like Alpha IMO.
With Karin all I can guess is that they wanted to make sure that like the other cast, she becomes 2 different characters depending on whether or not she has V Trigger activated. Changing her moveset around and adding her core special move to the rekkas is an interesting way to do that. You still get the walk speed and normals she was known for, then get a revamped take on her core special move once V Trigger hits.
Don’t really care that you’re not a good player. Theres always someone that doesn’t think you’re that good no matter how good you get. Just looking for interesting points and opinions.
I don’t even agree with the idea that she plays differently outside of VT. If people actually gave thought to the purposes of the new moves instead of getting distracted by things looking different, that would be more clear.
Literally none of her best options in A3 exist outside of VT. None of them. Literally 0. She will not play the same at all outside VT. No idea if that is bad, but that is just not a factually correct thing to say. No one knows whether she will be good or bad at this stage, but not having moves that are required for certain mind games and seeing the pushback / frame advantage on them tells us a lot.
She will have a new playstyle outside of VT involving trying to confirm her command dash followups, EX command dash d.P, and in general poking more with normals that aren’t st. MK into rekka and raw rekka. Maybe the occasional hail mary rainbow strike to keep them on their toes. How good that new game is will be determined by how good her cr. MK is in matchups and how confirmable those command dash options I mentioned are. Her upclose game is also less interesting because of the removal of command grab so she is limited to some delay command dash d.P frametraps and the normal tick grab/frame trap mixups everyone else has. Maybe has gained some interesting stuff with st. RH being airborne and being a crush counter, but that will depend on how safe and easy it is to poke her out of it. Her cr. LK mash into rekka’s or going for a command grab options no longer exist.
Some mind games around her command dash and some combo fodder hit confirms are what we got for all that was taken. Given that her shoulder puts her just outside throw range and negative on block with a VERY vertical uppercut means doing anything but blocking afterwards is going to be suicide most of the time. Maybe you can delay crouch jab if they try to walk up and throw, but there just aren’t any options at that range for mind games that aren’t terribly in your opponents favor. LK up kicks will probably be a better idea up close on block because of the additional push back and the mind game of doing a followup afterwards, assuming LK up kicks is safe on block.
If you think so, then answer my previous question.
Well, I would like to know, what options stand for 360 and Counter.
I mean, upkicks are basically a precommited Rekka sequence, so it is significantly different; normally with a rekka you can see if the first one hits and then go for frametraps or baits, while here you’re stuck with whatever you inputed, plus you lose the forward moving poke aspect. It’s still an interesting new way of looking at moves though
Her command throw really wasn’t that different from a regular throw in Alpha 3 outside of Vism OTGs because of how the throw system worked. The counter is a real change, but it was a bonus to her gameplan, not a core aspect.
But yes, she is a different character now. You can’t play her out of VT the same you’d play Alpha 3 Karin. Personally I’d rather have A3 Karin but this is what we’ve got and there’s not much use crying over it.
Those don’t really define her playstyle in the way that is being talked about. My response is based on the idea that locking rekka behind v-trigger changes her playstyle, which I believe is not true, because her other specials provide you the same tools that a rekka would, without becoming obsolete once you get a true rekka during VT.
So my question is one of curiosity, and also meant to avoid getting distracted by details like which button you’re pressing or what the move you’re using looks like. I could get into all sorts of specifics of exactly what strings worked with a character in a past game, but if we’re talking about something abstract like playstyle, we have to look at the new moves in an abstract way. Then we can identify what exactly a rekka gives you that these moves do not give you, based on our current knowledge, and if there actually is anything missing, we can talk about how to add those things to the character.
With that said, I like using counters on every character that has them, so I would like it if they were there, but I do understand that they’re “icing” and not necessarily required to maintain the playstyle of the character. I couldn’t tell you what the decision process was for removing it, but I would assume it was done for the same reason as why many other reversals were either removed or made worse. And it’s also worth noting that if Karin’s moves are safer than they were before (rekka was never actually safe frame-wise before, but it could be made safe by pushback a lot of the time), and she has moves that auto-frametrap, and her neutral game is improved, the need for a counter in general play may not be as large.
About the command grab, I feel similarly, but I also think that it would be somewhat unreasonable to expect it to stay that way. Maybe some people liked using it as a command grab, but on the whole Karin players ideally would prefer to use a regular throw because it put the opponent in a better position. The main place it was used was in V-ism where it had very bizarre properties that weren’t really related to command throw gameplay. In SF5 I had no expectations that it would still be in because of how much stronger command grabs are, unless they actually intended to keep some of the V-ism business via VT combos or something, and it’s still there in some form animation-wise at least. Given that you might actually prefer using a regular throw depending on who’s playing the character, I guess the best answer for that is that the replacement for the command grab is the backthrow, even though it’s not really a good trade if you look at it in modern command grab terms.
Karin’s laugh is OP and should be nerfed. I think at least one oh should be removed from it, maybe two.
Does that qualify as significantly different for Karin, though? It was never as important to raw poke/confirm with rekka for her as with Fei for example. At the close range where you would be using upkicks, you would most likely be linking/confirming into it anyway,
And then you have CD for that if you need it - again, assuming it works. Either block-confirm into the safe followup, or even try to frametrap with it or go empty into tick throw.
Maybe it’s harder to do both at once. Does that fit under “lower power option outside VT,” or no?
Except it guaranteed a knockdown for a crossup, safejump, and it combo’d into V-ism thanks to the OTG properties. Which normal throw did not do.
You had very different options from a normal throw and if they softened it and teched you actually had mixup options and air grab resets you could do, but that is another thing. Both had their place and neither was useless, but they weren’t the same at all. She would have been a VERY different character without the command grab.
For 1 mujinkyaku doesn’t threaten from the same distance at all, nor does it move forward with active frame from mid-screen. Moving forward with a rekka and being near sweep distance on block is completely different then doing a 2 hit move where the second move could whiff potentially and still being inside medium normals most likely if everything goes well. Most of the time you wouldn’t do ANY followups on the rekka at all except maybe the low if your spacing could make it safe. Or the counter if you felt gutsy. Safely spacing a rekka was always the name of her gameplan. She had mujinkyaku in A3 also, it was useful in the medium range because it did well against lows but it is a move for a completely different range.
Like I’m not even hating on the new character at all anymore. I just feel like I’m taking crazy pills when people are saying ‘she is going to have the same gameplan’ when she absolutely isn’t going too. I’m not even talking about the rekka followups, I am talking about the mid-range raw rekka game that doesn’t exist. There is no rekka equals she does not play the the same outside VT. There is literally nothing else to the equation. No move has properties that with the range, safety, knockdown, and confirmability her rekka had when she is outside VT. There is no replacement so she doesn’t play the same.