I’ve played it, I just never played ryu and I was only moderately interested in 3rd strike because of how makoto combos. Still SF3 had wall bounce and it still served a purpose for wall bounce at least from the Ryu’s I’ve played in sf3. The point is its only been in games with wall bounce and I think that’s the only time they add it.
I think they should have more push back for something that we can’t use all the time.
With very few exceptions, Dark Forces are only used for the iframes on activation, then turned off as quickly as possible when safe since they typically have massive end recovery. They also run off the normal super meter, which builds easier than you breath, especially if you kara cancel stuff. V-trigger looks like it’s meant to be similar in idea, but it’s not going to be used the same or as often at all. Vega and Bison have been around enough to have gotten fairly stale, and Nash was just a Guile placeholder who was going to need to be differentiated at some point. This is Karin’s 3rd appearance ever, and most of us like to ignore CFJ ever existed.
Even so instincts are still a good example, and again the game is going with a philosophy of making each character as unique as possible. Again, another similar philosophy that Marvel 3 and KI both had which allows the characters to be diverse without overlapping specials and tools too much.
Birdie has only been in 3 games and he is basically a new character himself. You could argue no one cares about Birdie, but for that small set of people that did there’s still an adjustment for him.
In Marvel 3 Sentinel had only been in 3 games and he played completely differently in Xmen COTA, Marvel 2 and Marvel 3. People were notably bummed at how even though he technically gained special moves, his tool set generally all functioned nothing like it used to. In some ways worse than Karin. Fans probably would have been more happy if he played like COTA Sentinel. It’s not even like he stayed partly the same like Karin. Each version of Sentinel is basically a different character.
As for Karin if you want to count Alpha 3 Max on Gameboy and the cancelled Capcom All Stars (which she probably would have played really strange in) that’s technically 4 and a half to 5 games. I personally think CFJ isn’t that bad of a game (honestly better than IV) so I’ll count it. It’s a lot more simple and boring than it should have been, but overall a solid built game for the short development time.
Just because she’s only been in a couple games isn’t an excuse for why she should stay the same. They had no trouble changing Bison when he first appeared in Alpha series back then. That’s gonna be the same thing here.
Also “Nash got changed to make room for Guile” isn’t an excuse either… otherwise we would say Karin got changed and her rekkas are tied behind VT because we are going to get Fei Long who will be the real rekka character.
All these excuses. Just stop it. She’s changed a little, get over it.
I didn’t cry when Ibuki was completely different in 4. I was just happy she was in the game and played her.
Just because you like to settle doesn’t mean everyone else does, or should.
I think people were expecting a near copy and paste version of Karin in SF5. I knew that they were going to reimagine most of the characters when I first saw Ryu and Chun, so I don’t think it’s that much of an issue. The main thing is that people were expecting for her style in SFA3 to translate smoothly into SF5 but that probably won’t be the case. Even with rekkas being locked to V-Trigger, I think Karin still resembles Karin. In other words, it’s a change to what we already know.
But someone brought up an interesting point in saying, “Well what if they did the same thing to Fei Long where he could only rekka in a similar state?” to which I couldn’t reply simple because of how crazy that sounds. I’d have to see how his complete package looked before answering that. At least with Karin, she doesn’t look completely gimped without V-Trigger.
I didn’t like the way Ibuki was done in IV at all. She had all of her moves intact but the general gameplay of SFIV made her work very differently from IV. Karin at least still retains solid walk speed, the majority of her normals (some which gained functionality) and a nice speed dash and command dash. Making her ground movement just as good or better than it was in A3.
Ibuki had all of her specials, but it didn’t matter when they all worked differently or had different frame data and were forced into a game where she couldn’t use much of her 3S gameplan at all. She just walks too slow to play the same footsie and pressure game she used to. She pretty much got relegated to close frame trapping and occasional footsies. At least Karin on the ground will fundamentally travel the screen like she used to.
With that said, she still gained people who attached to her new style and she still was Ibuki in a basic sense. The same should happen for Karin and I feel old and new fans will learn to like her new style. Which in general she is designed to fit the new philosophy of the game which is making each character feel new and be 2 different characters in and out of V Trigger.
I’m liking the look of this new karin. I always found her boring in A3. But this new karin seems to be the complete opposite of that boredom tree. Lots of options rather than just one or 2 really good options and a bunch of terrible stuff.
Good walk speed for the game and decent pokes as well… She seems to have some legit pressure and neutral going for her and that’s what I really like in a character, but with some complexity.
Sf5 still looking like a bag of trash though… But that’s a discussion for a different place and time.
Basically this. Exactly how crazy that sounds with Fei is what it sounds like to someone who played Karin before. No rekka without meter, no command grab, heck might as well remove his DP also to make it EXACTLY like Karin.Then you get a command dash for Fei. Does THAT sound like Fei? I think some people just wanted to play her for the looks and that is all they are seeing, the model so they are happy. Some people liked her moveset and the fact that literally no longer exists in any usable form is what they are annoyed about. It wasn’t changed, adjusted, or innovated. It simply doesn’t exist and you were given an odd tool that is not half as iconic, flashy, or interesting as what you had but be happy with your new toy!
Karin’s Guren Ken isn’t like Fei’s Rekkas though, and never were. They’re based on Kyo’s Aragami chains, which is why they have different options and branching paths. This exact kind of pushback happened when Kyo went back to an Aragami less moveset, which is why EX Kyo was a thing in XIII. Like Aragami, Guren Ken is the core of her playstyle, where as rekkas are just a special move for both Fei and Yang.
I see what you guys mean. Interesting discussion to say the least. We’ll see what happens from here on out, but we’ll most likely have to adapt to a new Karin if that’s the case.
Which again in the grand scheme of things, a lot of the cast already in the game is changed up nearly as much. It’s not like she’s wayyyy more different than Nash, Vega R.Mika or Bison. They’re all pretty damn different and people will have to adjust to them as well.
Everyone is getting almost a SF3 take into the future with their movesets and actually evolving. In the same way people were shellshocked by an almost entirely new cast for SF3, people get something that radicalizes the sequel and the gameplay again with old characters that have very different takes. Making the characters feel very new even if you’ve been seeing them for years.
I agree. Well said, especially on the end. Just a different take on a character we’re familiar with. I feel for the people who think otherwise because, again, what they fell in love with is not what they’re seeing but maybe they can come around to liking her new form.
Karin will require new ways to be effective in this game. Emphasis on “new”. It’s a new game, and your old character has a new spin on her old tools, so you either adapt to those changes or drop the character altogether. It’s so fucking simple.
How is this even an issue right now? For Nash and Mika this hasn’t been an issue, everybody just accepted the changes… And Nash in particular is basically a completely different character.
Why are rekka characters always good?
Idk, ask Iron Fist…oh wait…
Awesome post. Karin’s rekkas are like Sagat’s high/low tigers. The absolute core of her game in A3, with the other tools supplementing it. What if Sagat didn’t have tiger shots until V trigger?
Change is good and welcomed, but I doubt Akuma fans would be happy if he appeared without his air fireball, or Chun fans if she didn’t have lightning legs, or Juri if she lost her projectile charging game.
Chun basically hasn’t had lightning legs since the Alpha games any ways. Lightning legs has always been really situational neutrally and now they’re unsafe on block in V so pretty much just there for bnb filler now. Chun for me was always a character about normals and that’s why I liked her 3S version because she just focused on neutral with normals. When I’m not in V Trigger with Chun I feel right at home just walking forward and hitting normals.
Karin will gain new core tools in the same way that Nash and Bison will have to. Which in theory it seems that the rekka options are even more expansive now that they are attached to something meant to be powerful like V Trigger. I generally don’t have a big attachment to special moves so I guess there’s a bias on that. I just like having good buttons and walk speed to work with.
If they can make the V Trigger rekkas strong enough to warrant saving for and using often, I feel that will create an interesting dynamic that she didn’t have before. While still being fundamentally solid and not being gimped on walk speed and normals which was common for characters that had lots of options in IV.
She will have a new core style when not in V Trigger and a potentially more varied rekka core when V Trigger is activated. If the V Trigger rekkas end up being really fearsome it will add a very interesting dynamic where she is essentially 2 different characters that people must be aware of. Which I think is V Trigger working at its best.