I personally like how Karin is looking, though this is coming from a person who didn’t play much of SFA3 but enjoyed what he did play.
The only thing I’m concerned about is the ‘overhead grab’ followup from her QCB+P move. It just seems like after blocking QCB+P, why would you not immediately just block low?
You would block low. But if you try to punish her after the overhead, you hit her while she hops and all she takes is an air reset.
Then there’s the high-level mixup situation (which someone else also mentioned on this page) where you can grab or overhead after successfully hitting with the QCB+P and that conditions the opponent to get hit by the grab followup next time.
But I would expect the first reason is the primary one, really.
That does seem like an issue although as long as you’re safe on block you will still get the option to throw them. Which now they will throw whiff if they try to crouch tech during. The overhead seems better in V Trigger when you can go into the overhead, low or command grab after the first rekka.
Again, I hope everyone saying it is for balance is wrong because that is a really sad thing if you think about it.
The thought is because she can link a cr. LK after her overhead that you will want to stand block there so you don’t risk taking more damage. Her overhead option is the highest damage mixup option other than baiting something with a backdash she has from her rekka’s. Odds are at a high level it is going to be block high or just DP in between to not take the mixup. The low doesn’t hurt at all and you get to just tech away from her so it is by far the least rewarding option though blocking low prevents the throw gimmick and will give you a combo for free if they do anything but the overhead or backdash. Not to mention you can just hold back and if you see her take to the air press jab and beat out the startup which lets you react to all the scary options for free.
If your opponent is committing to an attempt to react to mixup, that’s the best possible outcome for the rekka user, cause you get to freely stop after 1 and keep going with the mixup. Tick throw, low, whatever.
You can do the Fei Long thing, you know. No one’s forcing you to go all the way through the rekka, just because Karin can sometimes do it pseudo-safely.
Edit: forgot to note: white health is no joke. Don’t underestimate those single-hit enders.
I am of the opinion that it’s more for diversity than balance. I do also agree that removing big things like special moves for the sake of balance is stupid and doesn’t really do anything interesting for the meta. What I like is that what has been done with Karin keeps the game from being something where it has 5 shotos that play similarly to each other and 4 different characters with rekkas used with the exact same command and resource in similar ways.
Karin fits the philosophy of being 2 different characters depending on if she is in or out V Trigger and most of the other SFV cast is like that to a lesser extent. Chun Li is a character with limited bnb options outside of V Trigger and can’t get any combos on normal hit off her overhead, but when in V Trigger can suddenly convert all over the place off ground hits, anti air hits and air to airs into full combos and juggles. Not to mention her normals now doing heavier white chip and multi hits.
I guess coming from Killer Instinct this philosophy is easier for me to understand, but that’s how that game worked. Pretty much all the characters had special moves and instinct/triggers that were as different as they could possibly make while still allowing them a lot of options to interact.
Depends on how safe it is and the spacing. If her rekka is more than -1 going for a tick throw with the god awful throw ranges of this game are definitely not going to be a thing. Even then people are also going to mainly just DP in between once they get used to it if they don’t see you backdash a lot. That is the real reason they added that there, so you can bait v-reversals and dp’s. It is likely going to be the most common thing you do. Also the fact the rekka leaves you near point blank to them and negative is actually a bad thing. Typically a rekka leaves you farther out, you can get some ghetto rekka mixups kinda like Fei with EX rekka maybe but that is about as good as it will get.
Some here have said first hit is punishable others have said it is not. Would like to see which is true. That is a pretty big deal.
No one here has said it is punishable. It’s not known for sure of course, but it has yet to happen in any video, and some of them have made it look very safe. So that’s why I think it is. In which case, you don’t need to backdash to bait a DP, just a V-reversal or a grab super or something like that.
Actually I think the primary purpose of backdash will be to bait normals or throws trying to start an offense against you when they expect you to stop after 1 hit and block.
If you want space, you still have the option of using CD shoulder, which looks -1 based on the jump tests posted recently. By nature the new rekka has to keep you close to enable the cross-through ender, and it’s probably fine because the rekka is on a timer and it’s your “I’m going in now” mode.
I would also heavily doubt that first rekka is dp/jab punishable.
Pretty much. Here’s the decision field off a blocked Rekka
Go High (RP)
Go Low (Slide, Hooligan)
Frametrap (Elbow)
Bait (Sway)
Tick Throw (No follow up, throw)
I’m assuming that a blocked rekka is relatively neutral or even plus as is the Sway followup, which it probably should be lest the only real mixup be baiting DPs.
If you go Elbow and they block
Frametrap (Slide)
Crossup (Elbow Rush)
Tick Throw (No follow up, throw)
Not sure what purpose the Hooligan really has here
The first Elbow has to be DP safe on block and it’s probably positive as it doesn’t combo out of normal rekkas.
Also, have we seen a comparison of damage between the Palm Strike and Slide enders? PS can go into CA, but otherwise I’d like to see how much damage you give up for Slide’s positioning
This is still a question of balance though, the effectiveness to this move is based on its numbers, you could make geifs SPD complete ass if you fiddled with the numbers too,
But conditioning people is what this type of character should be about, you do this type of move when you know, it will hit,
Hell I’ve hit people with far less practical command grabs than this, in fact look at sfxt
I can believe safe but people dreaming of the rekka without backdash being plus are definitely deluding themselves. Things being safe on block in this game are very rare.
Also think I found some evidence for st. MK not being cancellable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oMmHDQUgE8&list=PLbiHEMgy-HofZ6pKtSh7BGWBVe_trHGkc
4:25 she does st. MK then whiffs a st. jab. Think that was an attempt to rekka into followup.
I don’t think you need to dig up evidence for s.MK not being cancelable. It’s generally not common to have both a strong cancelable standing and crouching poke normal. They wouldn’t have switched the cancel property from s.MK to c.MK without that intention I believe.
The rekkas all being 0 or negative makes sense with the design trend. There are a few plus specials like Charlie’s moonsault flip, but the for the most part plus attacks are relegated to light and medium normals, yeah.
I personally do like new Karin. She is awesome and interesting, if nothing would be changed I would still love to learn her. I feel a lot of respect to capcom even bringing her back for our pleasure.
But, it can’t hurt, if we would have balanced EX version of character, in analogy of Iori Yagami in KOFXIII. The EX one is old Iori with rekkas and fireballs, and the new one is different without Orochi power. Both is used in competitive play together. Other example is Juzumaru from Yatagarasu, and he is also Rekka character, lol.
SFV Karin could be handled similarly, with EX version being more like Alpha 3, based on rekkas, having command grab or counters, you name it, without heavy juggle comboability.
Good spot. I wouldn’t say its 100% but im pretty convinced based on that. He just activated and probably wanted to head into the rekkas.
If they ever do go down the road of character variations, I hope it’s something that changes the whole character in some way like that, rather than just a super or something similarly boring.
There’s plenty of room for it, in any case. Ryu can certainly be changed up, Bison can be changed radically, Nash could even switch to charge most likely.
I think doing an Old/New variant a la ST would actually be pretty awesome. You basically get a version of a character that loses out on the V Gauge but in return plays much like their old version. Cue fast Bison, Rekka/Counter Karin, Charge Nash, Charge Birdie, so on and so forth. It would be super cheap to make as well thank to reusing most of the animations and model!
They can give cammy back her air throw, but ryu didn’t have have that kick in sf4. Besides its useless without wall bounce unless they change how the move was used.
You never played 3rd I’m guessing. Joudan kick was used as a combo ender on counchers and served as an ok poke on it’s own.
Thing is for the rekkas now you use your valuable resource, v-trigger. This is the only way to access what is the most important part of Karin’s moveset from alpha. So them being unsafe kind of bites.