I cannot believe you don’t shut up
[/Apu]
But for real, I still can’t believe this retard is talking. Just because you state something as tourney worthy. it doesn’t make a lick of difference to any of us. You’re a no body, your judgement means nothing. GTFOKTHX
Wait what what?
IM doesn’t have many problems to beat Wolvie. Your worst enemy is Spider, realy.
IM is mid tier, right? Because just a few peoples know how to use your good skills. A good IM doesn’t stay in the ground, he only stay in the ground while execute the infinite. He best strategy is fly around the air to confuse the enemy and attack distant. Then he comes close to you with the fly and attack the enemy and start the infinit.
Try play against a realy good IM player. He will not stay close to you, this will hapenning only if he attacks you.
When you see a really good IM player, maybe you will change some opinion about IM. I have to tell you that i never seen any really good msh match in the net (inclusive combovideos.com <–They are just for fun, not a competitive play).
No one is unbeatable, you are right. And i alrealdy saw many matchs from “my” Tops chars lose to Mid Tiers. But this is hard to do against a really good player, not a scrub. The good player can kill you if he hit you in a lot of circumstance.
Shuma is good , but if i do a rank he would be the number 4. He does the 100% corner combo, have a good throw but your good enemy will not let you do this easyly with him.
Jugger is a good too, your best strategy is play defensive. Then do the powerfull combos.
Well, i think that game is broken because the Tops is too many powerfull considering the others chars. Wolvie, for example can kill you just in the ground with your ground cancel fierce infinit. Or if your enemy use the strange game bugs like do the reality gen bug for you start the round dizzy! (oops this is a secret…!)
this is mostly likely due to the fact that you do NOT play these games at high levels. Of course high level play doesn’t look like low level play, if it looked like low level play it would just be low level play. sometimes these changes are subtle, subtle things like minute 6 pixel movements make a huge difference. for instance, in 3s, when I see certain players moving back and forth in front of me at a certain distance, i know i can expect a low. Why? because when the same player goes for an overhead he’s moving more drastically further back.
all you might see is the character moving back and forth and going for seemingly random overhead/lows/throws etc. but 3s is all about tells.
your definition of tournament worthy game is still “are the high level play videos fun to watch?” tournament worthy games have fun to watch high level play vids.
except high level ST IS about the fireball trap. you’re either trying to put your opponent in one, or trying not to get in one. just like XvSF is about infinites, and 3s is about Parry, and A3 is about bar and Vism.
[
then why do you complain about infinites?
it is cheesy. But that’s not the point, Vism is cheesy, CCs are cheesy. All I’m saying with softbanning is that (as middle kingpin pointed out) playing in casuals is more fun when you have more opportunities to learn and make mistakes. When you infinite you learn from a particular situation, when you get the opportunity to practice combos you have the opportunity to learn from multiple situations. Casuals is for learning, Competition is for winning. Just like in any other game, you do funky things and try your best to infinite. In MVC2 mag players will reset far and far more often than they might in competition.
I take it you’ve never been to a tournament before? Street fighter is all about winning and being number one. that’s the whole reason we have tournaments. We want to find out who the best is. XvSF simply requires infinites. and that’s how it rolls.
[quote="“margalis, post:258, topic:21247”]
3S is not a good tournament game. I’m certainly not alone in thinking that. A3 is a bad tournament game and apparently most people agree since there are no tournaments for it.
[quote=margalis, post: 1426896"]
It ends there. You want to explain to the fighting game masses how all the best Street Fighters ever played aren’t tournament worthy? You obviously do not play these games.
I take that back. 3s is the most popular TOURNAMENT fighting game. secondly, arguing over semantics does not change the original point. Why do so many people play 3s in competitions if it’s a poor tournament game? Why did so many people play A3 (which was THE Street Fighter before 3s took off in 2k2). Obviously there’s thousands of people out there who enjoy these games competitively, I would think you’re the exception not the rule in thinking 3s and A3 aren’t tournament worthy.
Alright, I’ll disagree, a tournament game is one in which the mind games are deep and challenging. This is something that is hard to see in tournament videos watching as an onlooker. What you really need to do is compete, play the game, then lose at those mind games and ask yourself why? It’s not cause the game sucks, it’s cause you suck. a tournament games playability is more related to the skill required to succeed with it.
So you say infinites reduce the skill required to beast at XvSF? I’ve showed you that it’s not. In ottawa our same players keep winning and winning my tournaments. Dog-face and MMDS consistently win at XvSF in the south. good players consistently perform better than less skilled ones. And it’s not cause of infinites, I’m sure MMDS and dog-face could win just as easily without infinites. In fact Martin who plays in Ottawa generally does not infinite at all, yet he still wins. So sure the combo system is degenerate, but the playability and rest of the skills required for the game are not. If the game was degenerate, our winners would all be random, since the skill required to play the game would be extrememly little, more players could play and they’d all hit that peak sooner, making results more like coin tosses and less like rankings. This is not the case. So since the game is not degenerate, why not have tournaments for it?
not to flame, but I can’t stress enough that your only criteria for judging tournament playability is how entertaining high level videos are
precisely, Xvsf is full of strats, character diversity and move usage. The biggest reason to play XvSF is that you can compete and WIN with any style you want using any character you want.
What you’re complaining about is the combos.
nowhere in
does the word combo come into play. boring combos do not make a degenerate game.
if you actually answered, instead of just giving me faulty logic, I’d argue with you, but I’ve decided against it. Arguing with you stupid. You don’t bring up arguements. You bring up opinions with no substance. Your whole argument this entire time has been: Xvsf sucks cause people use boring combos in high level play.
We’ve all told you it’s a weak argument that has nothing to do with how the game plays out. Cause seriously, if we banned infinites, 100% combos would do the same thing and the gameplay would remain the same. the game would be tournament viable just cause we use pretty combos? that’s the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard.
xvsf doesn’t restrict what’s effective at high levels. as any character there’s a good dozen ways to attack your opponent, and each character has at least that many answers. That’s where the depth and mind games and skill comes in. You seem to be missing out. In fact, high level is great, because austere and hard to implement strategies are required to break through defenses to land that infinite. XvSF is all about advanced tactics to open your opponent.
you’re not accounting for game play tactics like wave dashing, triangle jumping. cross up attacks, bait outs, square jumping, counter hitting, cross up anti airs etc. the harder it is for your opponent see the attack coming (and thus the harder it is for him to defend against it) the more risk you take in implementing the strategy. counterhitting wolvies dive kick with charlie’s low fierce is a high risk high reward technique that’s very difficult to implement (timing). Other tactics like triangle jumping can leave you with random typhoons that will get you infinited. Cross up attacks are even worse. watch our vids, a lot of 1hitcombo’s mistakes come from implementing difficult but highly rewarding tactics, fuckign them up, ending up with typhoon, then getting killed.
So yeah, all you see is combos. But I can’t blame you since you don’t seem to play the game.
enough about the combo system, scrub.
lol keep trying hvb right before the drones hit you, with a few tries you should get it. kinda similar to how capcom can run through 1 projectile with his kick super. just happens to match up in a similar way vs hsf and is really suprisingly useful when ur helper is getting spat onXXhsf.
best part about it is that when u realize u fucked up and u didn’t jump right or u see that u can’t get away from the drones, ground super that ass.
xvsf is fucking dope and i’m a firm believer that marvel 2 and xvsf would be better off without storm:arazz:
I like so much of what they both offer that i could care less what an internet retard thinks.
give it up margalis, for someone so incredibly on point with his opinion about insert game here , it’s funny that i’ve never seen you place in any worthwhile tourney…ever.
whats up with that? I know too many players who just looooove to talk shit about any game but when it’s time to actually fucking play…go get some more tokens batch…
I think xvsf has a chance to kinda get big again, the marvel scene would have to kinda branch out and get into it for it to really blow up imho. U gotta help us marvel scrubs out tho.
i’ll start with an actual q how the fuck can i catch storm running around when my team is charlie/gambit(typical order)
I know how i try to do it in marvel with cross-ups as she lands, throws and sneaking inbetween her set-ups to get a mind game going. This shit is different for me since i seem to have to rely on priority with charlie and bit. I know a little about charlie’s flip kick cross-ups and stuff, but i don’t have any real idea how that will match up with some of storms positioning ablities. Buncha scrubby players:sweat: :sad: :wgrin:
Edit: lol about the degenerate gameplay, tekken typically encourages around 10 moves!!!.. yet the game has a shitload of mindgames and positioning tricks to get in range for that bulk of gameplay.
It’s always about your gameplay lvl when you’re talkin shit like that, in marvel 2 i’ll pick low tiers all day and use their crappy options to open up people using top tiers. I can do that shit because people are UNFAMILIAR with the “soft” characters and they actually have SOME GOOD SHIT…heh. I guess i’m saying that even though storm in mvc2 is a whore, that doesn’t stop the fact that morrigan has great priority/combos/cross-ups. Sure the game looks pretty stupid with storm running away from me all day, but let me tag that bitch one time and because of whats my bum can do, it’s a completely different fight. New counter hits will open up to me, more zoning and mind games can be applied ect ect.
one more thing, i wonder why people reset in marvel even though you can typically max an infinite to 40 then combo into a dhc for a dead character…?
fairly similar story to xvsf kinda, cheap combos all based around the mindgames leading into the priority/throw battles…
Actually old sagat IS the best character…might want to do a little research before making ignorant comments about OG games.
Wolverine’s dashing jumping jab makes IM’s life generally unpleasant. It’s not a huge problem if you’re keeping the offensive, but it can make maneuvering tricky.
While I certainly don’t agree about O.Sagat having tactics that are “not super effective”, isn’t it generally acknowledged that Rog and Sim are better (Rog has more good matchups and Sim counters O.Sagat’s basic strat)?
Nobody can really do it since her air fierce is God. 
Just try to keep junk on the screen for her to dodge. Flash kick and trick card are okay moves (emphasis on “okay”, especially for trick card).
Well that sucks pretty damn bad, if it weren’t for sentinel/magnus/cable with beastly helpers then mvc2 could’ve easily had the same problem…
I trust you dasrik, been taking your ghetto advice for years, but i’m still holding out hope that some of the more hardcore players will tell me you’re wrong:sweat:
You’re still talking about percentages. Even without HVB, Marvel 2 may have more high level options then all the other Capcom games combined. Taking Roll out of MvC2 would not make the game better.Roll is irrelevant for tourneys, but another coll thing for casual play.
So what if the development team makes some useless stuff at high levels? Every single game is like that, and its their work, not your. My point is that the important thing is that the game should have lots of options in high levels. If Capcom launches a special MvC2 edition with 20 extra sucky characters, this is still good. The main game is untouched, and new players have 20 extra reasons to be attracted to the game. The percentage of useful stuff would drop, although the main game is intact.
But AHVB does the same thing, right? Or maybe I am juts missing something here. Although HVB can have that effect in a DHC as well, so you still have your point.
Spider-Dan was/is probably one of the best players in the world at MSH, AFAIK. Not online play, or playing ten years after the launch, but winning when the game weas hot and the entire country played it hardcore everyday. I don’t know about all the other stuff, but you can rest assured that there are at best a few people in the world that have played good, great and amazing IM players as often as Spider-Dan.
you need to use the ground version when you’re in certain situations if you want free damage. sidestep that shit when the ahvb would get slapped…
there are so many different tricks in marvel, even with the shitty characters, people underestimate the amount of boshit there is with EACH character…
Uh what?
Based on results I think it is hard to argue against Sim, and yes Boxer is certainly up there as well. Many ST players don’t agree on who the best character is and they certainly don’t agree that O.Sagat is the best. And Claw, the other character you conveniently forgot to address in your retort, has never been considered the best character by anyone as far as I know.
And yes, Sim is generally considered to own O.Sagat straight up since he can drill over low tiger shots and slide/attack under high ones.
The top tier of ST is generally considered to be some mix of Sim, O.Sagat, Boxer, Dictator, Claw and N.Ryu with the latter three generally behind the first three. Chun might be in the mix depending on who you ask.
The fact that people don’t agree on who the best character is is a good sign of the health of the ST scene.
power333: You are right about percentages.
A lot of people dislike Tekken 4 because the gameplay degenerates into JFLS and jabs. (To simplify a bit) A lot of people dislike some versions of SC2 because of X and the GI stuff.
The Tekken community has decided that some versions of Tekken are better tournament games than others, and that decision is based on how degenerate the gameplay is. There are better and worse Tekkens and SCs and that is the primary distinction.
This is not a difficult concept. The NBA instituted zone defenses for a similar reason - the league was turning mostly into isolation-based plays that worked only because of the rules for placing defenders didn’t allow you to cover the guy with the ball properly.
You can argue about whether certain games are degenerate or not but that is the proper test.
Games succeed or fail at a tournament level for two reasons - how popular the game is in casual, and how degenerate the gameplay is. In the case of 3S it is very popular in casual and that has translated into large tournaments although the gameplay is degenerate at that level. In the case of A3 the gameplay was also somewhat degenerate (though not to the level of 3S) and the game was less popular so it died off.
ST is not very popular, but the gameplay holds up very well even at the highest levels so it still gets play.
What else do you consider cheesy? Throws? Fireballs?
‘Cheese’ is scrub talk.
Why do you keep maintaining that fun and competition are mutually exclusive. “I play casual for fun and tournaments to win.” Playing tournaments is supposed to be fun!
When you have to draw a distinction between playing to win and playing to have fun you have a problem. Those two goals are supposed to coincide. A game that isn’t fun to play isn’t a good game.
Here you are telling me that XSF is a great tournament game, just not fun to play in tournaments. Ok, I guess we have a different definition of what a great tournament game is. To me a chore is not great.
You clearly don’t get what degenerate even means. It doesn’t mean random. A game can be degenerate and take a lot of skill.
How can you argue and argue when you don’t even understand the terminology being used? And this isn’t terminology I just pulled out of my ass.
Why not have XSF tournaments? Feel free, there are just much better games you could be playing. Everything you’ve said about XSF is more true of other, better games.
As I said before, any fighting game that doesn’t have completely random elements is going to require skill and is going to reward the best players.
Edit: Mixup why are you interrupting a perfectly good internet flame-fest with actual information?
If I didn’t know better I might guess you assumed that a thread titled “Is XvSF Competitively Playable?” is going to be fucking stupid by definition.
oh? what’s your definition of degenerate?
Last I checked (dictionary.com) degenerate meant: to diminish in quality.
that itself is pretty vague.
but I don’t know why I argue with you, I see the quality in the game, everyone else who plays this game sees teh quality in the game. You the forum scrub, who only judges things by watching videos doesn’t see any quality in the game.
what’s there to argue? you refuse to see my point, and keep changing yours or giving me additional faulty ones.
your point was originally: XvSF isn’t competively playable because I get put into situations where I can’t get out (infinite). Then you said, I like ST and changed your mind. Then you said I don’t like games where strats are minimal which you just pulled out of your ass, cause you don’t play the game on high enough of a level to realize just how much is involved. Then you said XvSF isn’t playable because MSH is better, which has nothing to do with anything. Then you said xvsf isn’t competively playable because the combos aren’t pretty, then I told you that had nothing to do with gameplay. Then you say xvsf isn’t playable because it’s degenerate. Then I tell you it’s no more degenerate than every other tournament fighting game.
Then you go on about some cheese shit, well of course CC infinites are cheesy. Of course 100% combos are cheesy, of course fireball traps (which are effectively 100% combos) are cheesy. I never said I had a problem with it, I just don’t want to do that in casual play. If I get someone in a fireball trap, I’m not gonna zone him there, I’m going do fancy shit, I’m gonna fancy tick grabs, or bait out uppercuts or try dizzy combos, I’m gonna mixup him up, I’m not gonna sit there and cheese him to death. Cheese is cheese, and it’s what you do to win, but it’s not fun at casual levels.
I’m still confused though, what the fuck does degenerate mean? Tell me. How does XvSF have diminished quality? And don’t give me that fun at casuals and fun at tournament bullshit. Have you ever been to a tournament? tournaments ARE fun. But they’re serious too. You play to win. You cheese your opponents if you have to. But that doesn’t mean it’s not fun. Tournaments are fun cause they’re stressful. You’re always worried about taking hits, you worried about not doing that combo, you’re worried that you might get eliminated, you’re worried about losing that entry fee in the pot. You’re worried about being embarassed cause you might lose to that other scrub in losers. That’s fun. Tournaments are fun because they’re serious. I don’t think I’d have fun at a tournament if I didn’t care about how well I was gonna do.
And of course the playstyle changes between casuals and tournament games, everyone always plays differently in tournaments than they do in casuals. Even in ST. In ST you’re gonna bait that uppercut everytime, you’re gonna play super safe, and you’re gonna cheese your opponents every time. You aren’t going to do anything fancy, you aren’t going to mind fuck your opponent, you’re gonna rely on solid strat. No shenanigans. I play Blanka, and in casuals I’ll do stupid shit like crossup light kick strong strong xx hop strong grab. That’s fancy. In a tournament I’m just gonna grab when I know my opponent won’t reversal and I’m gonna rely on mk mk ball dizzy and low fiercing fireball trades. None of that, eventually I can jump over for that fancy dizzy combo shit.
What about MVC2? How often do you see Mags use his low roundhouse infinite? how often do you see more than basic magic series -> LA -> LS -> DHC of doom shit? or more than short short Assist super? You can do lots of funky shit in MVC2, but you never do, because tournaments are basic playing to environments. Meanwhile in casuals, you’ll break out your homegrown team green and do fun stuff, but in tournament you aren’t gonna take that chance.
So I don’t know what you’re saying. Wait I do, you only watch videos, and if it doesn’t look pretty it’s degenerate. We’ve all seen o.sagat mirrors. They looked pretty stale. But were they degenerate? No.
Being skilled at anything is certainly a chore at times. Sometimes in XSF your going to have to infinite, sometimes in SF your going to have to trade 30 projectiles, its a part of the game. If someone isn’t ready to do their chores, how can they be ready to win?
to an earlier point:
Every competitive game looks different in casual than tournament. A lot of casual matches look different from each other depending on the circumstances. The only way I can see your point is if i cherry pick which matches to count, and which players to count. I don’t see a general trend.
As for the question about why would someone not infinite in casual…
Think of it this way, what if there was only one way to play chess? but it was a closed source video game, and because they stopped working on it, you couldn’t concede or offer a draw even if it was obvious.
Are you going to throw that away because of that oversight? Or are you going to account for it? In XSF, the players are accounting for a small oversight in what they see as an otherwise good game engine, instead of throwing it all out.
Of course it’s an imperfect solution, some people are going to try to take it farther and try to make a non-infinite tournament, and others are going to infinite every chance they get.
What confuses me is that you find this odd, the community has always been this way, about every game, it usually ends when 1) the game dies, or 2) enough people play the game seriously to shut everyone else up and force them to play their way.
XSF didn’t take part in the console revolution, but only because both console ports were unacceptable, not because of the actual gameplay.
XSF also hasn’t quite died either. It’s a good option for the abandoned SF XBL players, and it has a hope of being released as a downloadable saturn game.
I’ll let this thread mercifully die at this point.
And start “Is Primal Rage Competitively Playable?” instead. (Answer: at least as much as XSF)
The whole retro-revival thing is rather silly especially given the main argument seems to be “it’s like MVC2.” Yeah, so is MVC2, which is also a much better game.
At least with a game like VS you can say “hey, this game is actually kind of different than other games you might have played, but still good!” Not “this game is basically a strictly worse version of later games!”
Let me quote the original post for some humor:
LOL. Is that even a serious question? Hmm…let’s see…tough one…
I’ll leave it at that, CallMeANewb you can continue to promote XSF unopposed. And honestly I don’t care, if you enjoy it more power to you. Let’s just not pretend that XSF is some incredible hidden gem that is the greatest thing since sliced bread and deserves to be played as much as better, newer games.
Edit: I just have to point this out, from DogFace himself:
**
**
Yes, that is the mark of a great competitive game!
That said, in a way I admire that. A3 and A2 would both be much better games if people would be willing to play around with this sort of tinkering. Both games died when they could have lived having undergone some adjustment. It is fairly common for Capcom to royally fuck up what would be an otherwise good game with one colossal blunder.
Unfortunately banning infinites is kind of silly and impossible compared to playing A2G, banning V-ism chars or playing with some dip switch settings.
I cant wait for t8 and to see some footage fomr this years xvsf tourney at evo
then we can shitll over margalis saying is it competive now?
Oh btw heres a question that I been wondering. whos on Torontos team team of 5 for xvsf?
Just wondering does anyone counter storm in XvSF?
mags is your ebst bet. or to try and keep thatbitch form running away with cyc mags chun