I didn’t understand why some people think that Marvel Super Heroes is balanced…
Msh is better to Xvsf IMO but the games is broken if you guys use Iron-man, Spider or Wolvie.
The infinites are more easy than Xvsf and the 1st hit in anywhere of screen win the round. I’m saying for the 3 Top tiers IM-Wolvie-Spider.
Some others chars are good if you play with Captain-America, Shuma Gorath, Magneto, Jugger against with each others. Mid Tiers IMO.
But try play with some of the Mid Tiers against the Top Tiers… you can win eith Mid Tiers but you have to do almost a perfect because maybe the Tops kill you with the 1hit infinite. I already saw expert matchs with Mid vs Top but these are very unbalaced because 1hit infinite of the Tops are insane. The infinits of the Mid Tiers are limited in the corner.
Anyway… msh is unbalaced too. The infinits broken the game too.
If you were reading the posts and missed it, we have ***COMPETITIVE ***tournaments here in Ottawa very often and it’s ALWAYS the same people who dominate. I guess these people are just REAAAAALLY good at landin that one lucky hit right?
I think a large part of the sentiment in this thread can be distilled to the following statement:
"I don’t think it’s fair that I should die because I made a mistake."
XSF is primarily about spacing and movement. The sheer scale of the stages, combined with wave dashes, air dashes/grabs/blocks and pushblocking allow for a tremendous variety of strategies/mixups and their counters.
XSF does not distort the skill level between two players. Take the hypothetical scenario offered by an earlier poster, wherein one player reduces another player to a pixel before being “infinited twice” and beaten by a player of weaker skill.
First off, Should player 1 have reduced player 2 to very low life without killing them, I think it’s fair to assume that player 1 may be toying with player 2 or at the very least underestimating him. That OR Player 1 may have a weak endgame. All are possible.
Player 2 should not be able to fluke two infinites. If he does land two consecutive infinites and defeat player 1, player 1 either let up and got too cocky (which is a huge mistake, regardless of the game you play) or player 2 was completely inside player 1’s head.
I’m sorry guys, if you play a high stakes game and you fuck up, don’t try to play it off like the game is simply oversimplified. Perhaps you should re-evaluate the risk vs. reward ratio of your tactics…
but 99% of the arguments against XSF as a competitive game I have heard here are subjective and often unsubstantiated. Like the post above mine cosigning ANOTHER example of what I’m talking about.
By the “logic” of these posters, poker, blackjack or other such games are more skill-intensive when played for low stakes. Heightened stakes just means that the guy with the best cards wins. Professional gamblers? Those guys are just lucky scrubs, fuck.
Playing XSF in tounaments isn’t fun and has no style? Are you disagreeing with me or making my point for me?
If you read through various threads on XSF (not just this one) you see a lot of XSF players mentally divide the game into two categories - fun play and tournament 3-hit-repeated-infinite play.
The fact that fun play and tournament play are very different in the minds of some people is a bad thing. This is true of all games to some point, but much more so in XSF.
Again, in ST if you watch a Boxer casual match and a tournament match you are going to see basically the same thing. If you watch a character like Ken you may see something a bit different like more attempts at combo into super, but it is still mostly the same.
A lot of XSF players believe that tournament-style XSF is kind of boring. Note that I am not the one saying that, if you read XSF threads this is a fairly common viewpoint.
It doesn’t say good things about a game that you have to choose between playing fun and playing to win. Winning is supposed to be fun.
(This is where Sirlin comes in and makes fun of people who play for fun - come on Sirlin where are you!)
The fact is in XSF when Wolvy has you in a corner infinite you sit there and he does the same couple moves over and over again. Kind of boring. It is a lot more fun to try some crazy combo but why bother when the most basic, simple combo is the most effective one?
In some games a crazy combo may be hard but do more damage. Guile low short into super is going to do more than low strong -> flash kick. Is it worth it? Depends on how good you are at it. In XSF if it never worth it do a crazy combo when a simple infinite would suffice.
The game has a very open, fun combo system but many of the combos end up being irrelevant in serious play.
Again, in any game the further away the “fun” style is from the tournament style the worse the game is. CVS2 in the low-fierce era? Not that good. It says bad things about a game that fun and serious play are somewhat mutually exclusive.
This is what most tournament complaints are founded on. It is why people complain about Chun low forward -> super in 3s, why people complain about lack of character diversity, about VCs in A3 or low firece in CVS2 or Nak in CVS1. People start to complain when tournament play diverges from the type of play people find fun. All thsoe complaints amount to the same thing.
A really good tournament game is played in the same style as fun play, only at higher skill levels.
Oh, XSF is certainly about more than learning how to infinite. I can beat plenty of Cyclops/Wolvy people with my Bison/Gambit team. (not good people mind you, but people who can do infinites) I don’t think anyone was bragging, I’m just pointing out the difference between “fun” and serious play.
A lot of games are degenerate at high levels, but it is hard to put into words exactly what that means. I think my definition is pretty good - the further the game is from the “fun” gameplay when played seriously the more degenerate it is. This can include character choice, tactics, specific moves, etc.
Again I think the holy grail of a tournament-worthy game is that it looks as fun and crazy and interesting as a casual game, with the same moves and characters, only played much better.
Note that this is a problem in basketball as well these days, part of the reason it isn’t as popular as it used to be. People look at fun games, their own pick-up games and the pro games looks pretty boring in comparison. Why do people like watching the Suns? Because the Suns play a casual style, although far better than typical casual players.
I don’t think many people are saying that. That is true in ST as well. Get knocked over by a low roundhouse then get crossed up as you get up and it is game over. (Ok, to be fair, some people are saying that)
“First to make a big mistake loses” is perfectly fine with me. “First to make a big mistake loses after sitting in the corner for 30 seconds being juggled by the same 3 moves over and over again” is less fine.
B) XvsSF is about infinites if you dont think so your living in a dream world, you can do other stuff besides infinites but when it comes down to it if you know the infinites why not use them? Sure you might not always win with an infinite but still they are the most effective ways of winning. Also Storm doesnt need an infinite cause I can teach anyone to use her in 5 min. My point is the most effective way of winning in this game is infinites. If you think XvSF is fun good for you, but also know you cant make people play it and it wont get as big as other fighting games, cause theres no point in even trying.
Being against XSF and its infinites is like being against MSH and its infinites, or MvC2 and its big combos, or ST, 3rd Strike, whatever and its big combos as well. In a way, its like being against combos, period. Its all a matter of degree.
I understand Margalis point (waiting is boring), but from that point of view CvS2 is even worse. Yeah, in XSF you have to wait a good while twice in a match. In CvS2 you have to wait a good while each time that a character dies. In any console game, you have to wait a huge while between the moment you press power and a lot later, when all the loading and options are done.
In a way, its just like above. waiting towards the end of any combo (crouch cancels, ROM, dizzies, pick your game) is boring in a way. But then some guys should be in a crusade to eliminate all combos. No fun IMO.
Its not just that sure theres big combos in almost every fighting game, but how effective are they compared to XvSF? I learned geifs infinte and cyc’s in about 5min. It wasnt even hard at all and I thought wow this is like my 1st time playing this and I already learn 2 infinits in 5 min. And I used them when I went to the arcades, then I thought why im I playing this game and went back to other fighting games.
Go to ottowa and get raped all day with your super awesome gief inf skills.
Honestly, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You said you’d rather play MSH… you don’t get to talk anymore.
Suicidal - A lot of players use emulators to play on Kaillera, which an an online emulator-linking program. It’s certainly not arcade-quality, but it’s good for shits and giggles.
had to quote this, because it was my man right here
that made one of the most killer 1pixel comebacks I’ve ever seen. Up gainst LMX’s cyke, they’re both at one character and Middlekingpin is on low life dodging s.fierce xx jab and strong optic blasts, mega optic blasts and pure chipping tactics left and fucking right (with charlie no less) and squeezes out a win on one pixel. think street fighter vs. mortal kombat 2 during the scorpion throwing spears at ryu segment. It’s not that Middle Kingpin has no skill (he regularly comes 5th in all my XvSF events), and pulled an infinite with one random lucky hit, and more that he struggled against a solid Cyke for a good 20 seconds doing nothing but perfect play against flawless play to legitimately make the greatest comeback I’ve ever seen.
Man, Jon, I WILL always remember that match. I wish we had taped it.
If ya’ll is curious, Martin makes a 1 character comeback right here in the last game: [media=youtube]VzjsDkQWppA[/media] WITHOUT INFINTES.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait.
are you saying that 3s, a3, cvs2, cvs1 and marvel aren’t competitive?
didn’t reset take 3rd at evo one year doing none other than what he does best? resetting?
Isn’t ST just as bad? I made half a dozen mistakes and found myself in the corner, now I eat fireball chip damage or uppercut at my choosing until the end of the round? that’s fun?
oops I threw a fireball predictably and now I’m dizzied -> 90% is fun?
I’m confused man.
Dont’ get me wrong, I love SF2 as much as you do, but I don’t see how SF2 is any less competitive or more fun than XvSF.
oops I don’t know how to deal with Vega dive claws, oops I don’t know how to get out of fireball traps, oops I don’t know how to deal with tick throws. Oops I got hit by infinite I guess SF2 sucks just as much as XvSF.
osagat and/or vega are softbanned in japan, why? because they’re NOT fun to play against. japs hate that shit. I hate that shit, does it mean I’m not going to be a) pick them b) be prepared to deal with them, come a tournament? No.
i’d say infinites are in that same boat.
Seriously, I get hit by infinites all the time. I’m not even close to the level that the rest of my ottawa cats are at, but look, I’m crap and I can still see the beauty/depth/skill involved in XvSF. I guess if you don’t have the comp for the game it’s tough to appreciate and too easy to shit on, because you got beasted by some impossible to land Zangief infinite.
It’s hard to make a good argument when you aren’t even responding to wrote I wrote.
I’m saying that when people complain about 3S, A3, CVS2, CVS1 and MVC2 although the complaints are different the underlying problem is the same - the game at high levels breaks down and stops resembling the game people know and love.
Out of the list I mentioned 3S and CVS2 low fierce era are pretty bad. I’m not too familiar with the CVS1 tournament scene so I can’t comment on that too much. MVC2 is fine, CVS2 is fine in general, A3 is kind of borderline. Again this is true of all games to some extent, it is a question of degree.
Competitive is the wrong word. Any 2 player vs. game is competitive unless it has an “I Win” button. That doesn’t make it a good tournament game.
[quoet]
Isn’t ST just as bad? I made half a dozen mistakes and found myself in the corner, now I eat fireball chip damage or uppercut at my choosing until the end of the round? that’s fun?
[/quote]
That is fun for ST players. Seriously. Yeah it is frustrating but it is also a fun challenge. If a bunch of ST players were saying “man, high level ST is just fireball traps!” then we might have a problem - I’ve never heard anyone say that! Fireball traps are the bane of intermediate players.
I specifically said in my post that “first big mistake loses” is fine. I have no problem with that.
O. Sagat and Claw are not soft-banned in the US. Are you saying you think infinites should be soft-banned? Or that infinites are not fun to play against?
Personally I don’t think O. Sagat or Claw should be soft-banned, I don’t even think those are the two best characters in ST and I don’t think off the wall over and over again is a dominate strategy.
It sounds to me that you are calling O. Sagat, Claw and inifinites all ‘cheesy’ to some degree.
You say yourself that infinites are not fun to play against, but in tournaments you have to be prepared for them and be prepared to use them. Aren’t you making my point for me?
If ST was all O. Sagat and Claw and people hated those matchups then ST wouldn’t be a good tournament game. But ST isn’t all O. Sagat and Claw and a lots of people don’t mind playing against them.
Going to a tournament isn’t supposed to be work, like “well time to pack away all my neat tricks and prepare for boring repitition from everyone!”
Again, you are proving my point that XSF has two separate groups of players: Those that feel like fun play and tournament play are somewhat mutually exclusive and those that don’t.
Most people really don’t find repetitive 3-move infinites very fun, most players avoid that sort of play in casual but that is what you see in tournaments when people really care who wins. That’s why I think XSF is not a good tournament game - it is a lot more fun to watch and to play when people are a little bit looser.
Again my problem is not the damage, my problem is not “one bad mistake kills you.” My problem is that a lot of XSF players don’t really enjoy super-serious play because the game at really high levels is not that similar to what people find fun in everyday play. Same reason people roll their eyes at 3S tournaments - everyone has fun playing 3S at home with their crazy characters and strats then they watch a tournament dominated by two moves.
you don’t like xvsf cause nobody uses pretty combos in high level play?
wow are you the biggest scrub.
do you think anybody cares to see the same old low forward supers when they watch 3s videos? no, they want the mind games, the “how did he set up his low forward super” part.
that is what makes 3s, 3s. the setup, the mind game, the thinking, the skill, the parries that is what makes 3s fun to play and watch at high levels. same goes for A3, and Marvel and every other game with some amount of cheese. all the games you’ve mentioned are highly competitive and tournament worthy andl by your own logic and criteria, so is XvSF. Unless for some reason you don’t believe 3s or A3 or anything else is tournament worthy, in which case your ideas are just whack, and I’m not going to even bother arguing with you.
what’s the difference between 100% damage combos and infinites? nothing but how pretty they are, and that’s the difference between casual and tournament play. The game itself doesn’t change any.
So this two groups of players shit is all garbage, cause the same people who don’t play infinites in casuals are the same people who play XvSF competitively. Just like in 3s, when you’re at home, you’ll try and break out the oro yagou dama unblockable infinite, but when it comes to tournament time you’re gonna pick that same ken/chun/yun/tengu stone whatever and play 3s competitively
how is that at all different from XvSF?
The most popular fighting game in america is not tournament worthy I guess.
The best part about Xmen vs SF is that everyone feels like they have a chance to win. *Going back to MiddleKingpin’s poker analogy…
It’s just like poker in a sense that I have a decent chance(please don’t interpret this as anything close to likely) of beating a player that’s much better than me (as opposed to other Capcom games where I would have next to none).
factor this in with everyone’s need for personal glory and you have this illusion of being better or doing better than you really are. It definetly adds to the competitiveness of the game.
I’m not only talking about infinites either (is that all you guys have?).
my favorite part is the fact I can actually compete against likely some of the best players in the world using SF skills. That’s probably why I love this vs. game way more than any other.
3S is not a good tournament game. I’m certainly not alone in thinking that. A3 is a bad tournament game and apparently most people agree since there are no tournaments for it.
Why does it matter? Do you realize I’ve said at least twice now that “first to make a mistake loses” is not a problem? ]I’m not complaining about losing to one mistake. I even gave a specific example of how the same things happens in ST.
Oh no, I got hit by a low roundhouse then didn’t block a crossup and died - ST SUCKS!!!
Lol. Why bother responding when you can’t even read what I wrote? Serious question. That isn’t my argument at all. First big mistake loses is fine with me.
No, the newest Mortal Kombat isn’t tournament worthy. You disagree?
MK is proof that just because a game is popular doesn’t mean it is a good tournament game. 3S is popular (although not even close to the ‘most popular fighting game’) in spite of how it plays in tournaments, not because of it.
Popularity has nothing to do tournament worthiness. If you disagree I suppose you are advocating that Mortal Kombat, DOA, Fight Night and Smackdown vs. Raw should be the new Evo lineup?
You know, because those games are all so popular, surely they just HAVE to be great tournament games right?
Undertaker vs. Batista in the Evo2k8 finals - book it!
I’ll say it again, the farther the tournament game is from the casual game the worse the game is for tournaments. I haven’t seen you agree or disagree with that, or suggest what other criteria should be used. Tournament XSF looks like boring crud, as does tournament 3S and CVS2 low-fierce era.
Compare that to GG. I’m not a fan of GG but GG tournament play is pretty exciting and dynamic, just like it is in casual play. (With the exception of some Sol-dominance courtesy of Japan)
“Hey man, I run other plays in practice, but come game day I’m all bidness - screen passes every down!” Exciting!
Now replace “screen passes” with “Chun low forward->super” and you can see why 3S isn’t so great. Or “crazy combos” with “3 move infinite.”
A game that discourages you from using a variety of strats, characters or moves when played seriously is not a good game. That is what you call degenerate gameplay.
You can disagree, but at least I am defining my terms. The fact is, every 2 player vs. game that doesn’t rely on pure luck is ‘competitive’ in some sense. Hey guys - is Karate Champ competitively playable?
I’m defining what I consider a good competitive game to be, and XSF doesn’t meet that criteria.
Don’t ask a question if you can’t stomach the answer. You made this thread just so everyone could agree with you?
If your idea of a ‘competitively playable’ game is just a game that takes some skill then every fighting game ever made qualifies.
