Cheapness is present in SSF2THDR. It’s undeniable. The only truly fair match is a mirror, because it eliminates circumstantial advantages. Unfortunately, they’re boring.
There is most definitely cheapness. I remember back in the day, here in my hometown when the game cost 25c at one arcade and 50c at the one up the street, everyone gravitated towards the machine that only took a quarter. Us Street Fighter players just naturally gravitate towards cheapness.
Hope it’s okay to bump this. I didn’t want to create a new thread about cheapness, but I felt like trying to discuss the topic again after so much time has passed.
I have more experience now, it’s been almost a year since I joined the forums here. I have to say, some things I thought were cheap actually aren’t as bad as I thought. Even situations I thought were hopeless weren’t, and the kind (most of you guys anyway) people here taught me. Some things still bug me, mostly the issues that have already been touched on in this topic, like random outcomes for grabs, matchup dependant gameplay (like the Honda/Cammy example earlier) and low risk high reward tactic abuse (throw loops come to mind).
But the best argument against there being cheapness is that both players have the same options available to them, so I really don’t know how to make the call. At the very least, the game mechanics are flawed but I can’t think of a game franchise I’ve spent more time playing and (usually) enjoying, so I guess I have nothing to complain about in the end.
…I still rage when I lose though. -_-
So, anybody else’s opinion changed? Notice any particular instances you don’t like or anything?
For me, everything is fair game to use in a serious match. Except akuma. But honestly shit talking and fake raging (and occasionally real raging) is part of the fun. Throws are cheap. Chun stored super is cheap. Claw wall dive is cheap. Picking cammy to counter hdr hawk/ n.hawk/ o hawk is cheap. O hawk himself is cheap.
Cheap and calling things cheap and the shit talking that comes with it is all part of the fun. Call whatever you want cheap as long as you’re still playing the game and having fun it’s all good.
I used to not call anything cheap cuz i considered everything fair game and able to be dealt with to a certain capacity. Now I call everything cheap. Cuz its more fun. Recently someone was complaining that supers were cheap. Especially chun and stored super. I had so much fun that night and i made every effort to mash out super whenever possible and i was laughing with a huge grin on my face every time that it worked (and it worked ALOT that night…) lotsa shit talking from everyone. Havent had that much fun playing ST in ages… What happened next? Everyone else in the room started picking chun vs him… And also made an effort to tailor their normal playstyle so they can annoy him with super.
The key is to not write off anything as being ‘cheap.’ Rather, just think of it as a current problem, obstacle, or hurdle that you have to get past. Improving as a player isn’t an easy task and you’re going to encounter tough situations along the way. It’s important to really stop and analyze the situation in its entirety and think and test several different counters until you find something that works. This is how the meta game is developed. So now that you’ve discovered counters to previous situations that you thought of as ‘cheap and impossible to beat,’ keep on doing that same process for the next set of problems you’re going to hit.
Grab outcomes are only random if you both are in range and press throw at the exact same time. This is a pretty rare issue. The vast majority of the time, one of you is going to press the throw button at least a frame or two earlier than the other. Many games are matchup dependent, and so this is not an exclusive ST thing, but something that applies to all games. Either learn a variety of characters to counter-balance their bad matchups, or work harder to fully know your bad matchups inside and out.
Yeah, throw loops are pretty dumb, but it just forces you to play as close to perfection as possible to avoid getting caught in that situation. In the majority of matches, this is not really too big of a deal, as it usually takes a bit of effort to be able to put yourself in that type of position.
Cheapness will always exist in fighting games. Realize that it’s just a game, nothing effectively happens when you lose a game, other than hurt your ego. You’ll live. The important thing is that you deal with it and move on.
^ Well, I realize that it isn’t going to happen every time but a random outcome for a scenario in a game isn’t good, especially when grabs are so common.
True, many or most games are match-up dependant. In fact, some thrive on it as the basis for gameplay. I don’t think that’s how a Fighting game should be though. It works for, say, Pokemon and Fire Emblem because even though you can get screwed, it’s ultimately your decision how to play. In a Fighting game you can’t customize anything or set a backup plan.
Good point on throw loops. Perfect play would prevent the loops. I just think that the game would benefit from always making both players work hard for everything they get, and there should always be a reliable way to defend against every scenario. As it stands perfect play is the only solution, but it is a good one!
Yeah, my ego has been crushed mercilessly. I know it shouldn’t mean anything but it does to me. The only solution would be playing casually I guess.
On the topic of cheapness, I don’t know if it’s true but against certain characters, one or the other seems to have a grab with priority. Like Vega and Blanka. I can’t prove it but as Chun, those two seem to be able to grab me easily, I’ll win the anticipated grab 25% of the time I’d say. And Chun seems to grab Ryu easily. Is there some type of “grab strenght” or priority? Thanks.
I agree. Randomly selecting character inputs to execute aren’t ideal, but they’re such a minor, minor, minor, minor part of the gameplay, it doesn’t end up breaking the game at a competitive level.
Matchups are what make fighting games. The variance in character design, matchup details, and playstyles, are what makes these games so interesting. Is it fair? No. But being fair isn’t the point of it. If you want a perfectly equal and balanced game, play chess, or a tournament where everyone picks the same character. But this leads to eventual stagnation of the end game as well as being extremely boring. You have to find the happy medium between game balance and game fun.
The lack of customization is what makes the game good. You are given a set of tools in the form of a character to combat your opponent. The beauty of this design is that the same character you choose is the exact same character that top players choose. Their hit boxes, frame data, all that good shit, is exactly the same, and the only difference lies in player skill and mental fortitude only. Not everyone can play basketball in the NBA, but everyone sure as hell has a shot at both fighting and becoming a top player. Your backup plan is the one you create for yourself. Your goal in any match is to establish plan A, B, C, and D, for a variety of situations and ranges. The same system that you claim works in Pokemon and Fire Emblem is the exact same system in fighting games, but done using different methods.
On the topic of throw loops, there’s always a risk involved. The offensive player has to work hard to land that throw loop, and vice versa, the defending player has to work hard to either keep away from that position or find a way out. Basically, in ST, everyone has to work hard, and no moment is insignificant or doesn’t necessitate your attention. Every single move your opponent makes is meaningful and important, which forces you to stay on point throughout the entire match. There’s no down time.
The best solution is to not hold an ego at all. Approach the game as a student, realize that losing a match only means you’ve still got holes and gaps in your gameplay that you need to work on, and improve. The day you stop the learning process it the day you will stop improving, and that’s when the losing gets worse and worse.
^ True, that random aspect doesn’t break the game. I’m just a perfectionist. It works as it is, but if they release a better version for PS4 it would be nice if they fixed it.
Well, I just think the game can be further balanced is all. Matchups are somewhat skewed. I’m sure we all have our own tweaks we’d make.
I didn’t mean that SF2 needs customization, just that if a character is ill-equipped that there’s little you can do to an equally skilled player wielding a better character. In Pokemon, yeah, you can be in a pickle off the bat with a bad starter matchup, but you still have five left plus your first can be a strategically planned loss. But again, SF2 doesn’t need customization like this. Just a few tweaks, IMO.
Yeah, there is always risk involved but the risk is sometimes low but yields a large reward, and once you’re in it’s much easier to maintain your advantage than it is for your opponent to regain footing. Don’t you think that changing that a little could make for more exciting fights? I agree with everything you said though. There’s definitely no down time. Whenever I let up for an instant is usually when I lose.
It’s hard not to have an ego, to want to be one of the good players…I do want to keep learning and improving. Maybe after another year I’ll see more than I do now again. I hope so.
Once you’re in, and tick throwing your opponent mercilessly, it actually gets harder to maintain the advantage, not easier. Against good players anyway. That’s because good players have a plan for any tick throw situation, and are ready for your mixups and tactics.
For example: if Chun Li is trying to tick throw Ryu, she’s going to mixup throws with sweeps or Lightning Kicks or baits. The best responses from Ryu are reversal Shoryuken, reversal Tatsu or jump back or just block. The not-so-good players will panic and do stupid stuff like try to reversal throw her, sometimes it’s possible if the other player over reaches, but mostly impossible cuz Chun outranges Ryu. Or they will miss their Shoryukens or miss their throw techs, and before they know it they’re dead cuz Chun does a shit-ton of damage on her throws.
The point is not to panic, have a set of plans in your mind for what the mixups might be, and react or guess accordingly. Using your head will improve your game, guaranteed.
Some characters do have higher priorities than others when it comes to throw ranges. Based on the Shoryuken wiki diagram and throwboxes by dammit (yellow boxes are throwboxes, white boxes are throwable boxes), this is a list of characters starting with the biggest throw ranges down to the smallest:
+47 Zangief
+29 Hawk
+22 Honda
+15 Blanka
+10 Dhalsim
+5 Bison, Balrog
+4 Chun Li
+1 Vega
(0) Ryu, Ken
-1 Guile, Dee Jay
-2 Cammy
-3 Sagat
-8 Fei Long
This list is based on throw ranges vs Ryu and Ken. Ryu vs Ryu would be zero, Chun Li would have a 4 pixel advantage vs Ryu and Fei Long would have a minus eight pixel disadvantage vs Ryu. Zangief’s SPD outranges Ryu’s throw by 47 pixels (and outranges Hawk’s Typhoon by 18 pixels). These may seem like huge numbers but they’re actually incredibly tiny.
^ Wow, thanks for the comprehensive breakdown on grab priority! I am just surprised that Chun out grabs Vega…he and Blanka always put me in fear of grabbing.
Blanka has a pretty good throw range. Despite Vega’s less-than-stellar throw range, his walk speed somewhat makes up for that, since it makes it more difficult to react to his walk animation in time to stop the tick throw. But even then, Vega usually risks getting thrown or countered himself whenever he goes for the throw.
As to Gief, Hawk, and Honda’s throw range, I assume those are all counting their special move grabs? What’s their actual regular throw range?
blanka has the 2nd best normal throw range, behind honda
claw’s throw range doesn’t suck, it beats half the cast including shotos
what surprised most people is that hawk has the 2nd worst normal throw range, not to be confused with his 360 special range though
not sure the exact number that hdr changed (for example ken’s knee bash), since they never publish it
but here’s a complete break down of ST’s (including specials and normal throws)
the guts of the research is this table
Move Distance advantage compared
to previous move
(pixels / in game counter)
-------------------------------- --------------------------------
Point Blank 0
feilong 31
thawk 2
balrog/hp 1
sagat 2
cammy 1
deejay, guile 1
ryu, ken, zangief/super 1
vega 1
zangief/lk suplex 1
chunli 2
mbison, balrog/mp, zangief/throw|mk suplex 1
dhalsim 5
blanka 5
ehonda 2
zangief/hk suplex 2
ehonda/oicho 3
thawk/360|super 7
zangief/spd 18
as you can see, mbison’s normal throw range is 1+2+1+1+1 = 6 pixels better than guile’s.
and dictator mains already figured out that if you do a point blank MP to a standing guile (and blocked), it pushes dictator just far enough out of guile’s throw range and dictator can get a free tick throw afterwards (no reversal flash kick for a standing guile)
the wiki’s table is misleading. it compares the BEST throw move of each characters, instead of breaking down each throw options of every characters
^ So what you’re saying is the raw numbers don’t constitute a distinct advantage in and of themselves? So I guess a grab guide should be compiled for refrence so the numbers won’t mislead people.
On a similar note, I just researched how “negative edge” works and omg, it’s possibly the cheapest thing present in the game. General consensus seems to be that “low risk high reward” tactics are acceptable. But Sirlin said there’s no risk in some situations with it. That’s not cool, is it…? What do you guys think?
No, I don’t think you get it.
The raw numbers tell you everything, but the wiki doesn’t show all the numbers.
The table above however has everything you need to know.
The wiki’s table compares the BEST possible throw of each characters.
Wiki shows gief beats honda because SPD beats honda’s oicho. What it doesn’t tell you is that honda’s normal throw beats gief’s.
Now if you see a gief holding down back turtling vs honda walking forward, do you think honda’s attempt to throw at the correct distance will be at a disadvantage?
No because honda’s normal throw beats gief’s, and a gief holding down back probably can’t do a 360 fast enough without jumping (in ST, not HDR).
neg edge is not cheap, i think you meant neg edge + no whiff animation
You have to understand it yourself instead of just blindly pointing out what other people said.
ST Hawk will be super cheap if you can turn on a cheat so his 360 throw box is active 100% of the time.
(if this cheat is real, everyone can do sako ticks, not just hawk elites) But is it possible in practice?
Hawk vs Cammy is a 2-8 bad matchup even hawk has this “cheap” neg edge 360. why? because he can’t get close enough to use it or denied by safe dp of cammy’s.
Shotos can still zone hawk pretty damn good.
You only see this cheap tactics when it’s a good hawk vs a bad shoto player (or a good shoto player screws up every once a while).
In a FT 100 high level play, shotos still win.
Claw wall dive on the other hand, is cheap (or unbalanced / advantageous / whatever you want to call it).
They do constitute in advantage, if you’re able to land setups that take advantage of this situation. papasi listed an example where Bison can setup a tick throw that Guile cannot counter except to soften it, or hope that Bison has poor timing.
Likewise, Honda has throw loops on Guile and Deejay that’s very difficult to escape from due to the throw range differences.
Negative edge has been present in every fighting game in history. It’s fine as a mechanic, but it tends to get a bit ridiculous when used in conjunction with moves that either have no startup, or no whiff animation, i.e. Honda and Hawk’s special grabs. At that point, yes, unintended glitches and unforeseen advantages have boosted both Honda and Hawk, but it’s nothing that puts them up at the top of the character ranking charts.
Low risk high reward suck, but it exists in every game. Believe me, it’s much worse in SF4 against certain members of the cast. The answer remains the same. Just gotta roll with the punches and find ways to deal with it.
^^ Oh, okay, so then you mean it’s all situational then I guess. I think I get it now.
Well, I don’t usually blindly follow anything but Sirlin’s video made Honda look like a sure-win if he can get into position, like a checkmate or something. I don’t really know what I’m talkng about though, I never used grapplers so I have no firsthand experience…
Claw wall dive is cheap? From a technical perspective or just how quick it is?
^ I played Super Street Fighter 4, dunno bout Vanilla or AE/2012 but it seemed balanced, aside from Akuma and Sagat obviously. I’ll take your word for it though, I was never too into it…
It’s situational, but can be performed pretty commonly in a match if you intend to do so. It’s definitely important to note the throw range differences, and how certain characters can abuse superior throw range to put their opponents in powerful mixup situations with few counter options.
Don’t blindly follow any video. Take it into account, but always test and question it. While Honda does have certain situations in which he holds a heavy advantage, such as ochio throw loops in the corner, he has to work pretty damn hard to be in that situation. Against certain matchups, it’s not even guaranteed to work 100%. So despite the fact that, from a design perspective, you can consider negative edge ochio loops that have no whiff animation or startup frames to be cheap, in practice, it’s not super game breaking. Even with all of these advantages, he’s largely considered mid-tier, so you can imagine how difficult it is to be able to consistently abuse these advantages in a live match. Same rule goes for Hawk and Gief. Powerful throw options? Yes. Powerful enough to completely dominate the entire roster? Not even close.
Claw’s wall dive is considered cheap because it’s an easy motion to do, easy to time for all different ranges of player skill, extremely difficult to block or counter, can be made safe on block, can be option-selected into a hit or a grab, can be option-selected into a hit or a super. All safe.
And while there is a bit of skill to be able to execute it at a high level against high level players who have developed counters to less-effective forms of the wall dive, it simply takes a powerful setup and makes even more deadly, even at the higher ends of tournament play.
So even though it can be situational, the situation occurs frequently enough to be used as a reliable tactic. Good to note. Thanks. =]
I know Zang isn’t going to dominate the game, but didn’t SnakeEyes come out on top with Zang in EVO while back?
Haha, I guess the wall dive does seem overpowered. I’d think a simple solution would be to cut its speed a bit but keep the powerful mechanics. Vega’s like a raptor.
Well, I think I’ve exhausted my concerns. At least, until something else dominates me haha. But I’ll just keep at it like you said. Good talking! Thanks.
SnakeEyez won in 2010 for HDR. But many see that as fraudulent, since HDR Gief was insanely over-powered in some players’ minds. While SnakeEyez does have a very, very good Gief, many people discount him as being a good Gief until he can replicate those results in ST. Unfortunately, since he’s a pad player, he rarely gets an opportunity to play in ST tournaments and play at his best without being able to use a pad, or not be distracted by his success in more modern games. He did okay at ToL last year.
The simple solution would be to either remove Vega’s ability to knockdown on hit or make it do a soft knockdown. Problem solved. Will never happen. Based on Capcom’s track record of having never patched ST (not counting HDR), it’s not happening anytime soon.
^ This is going to sound dumb, but why would he need to replicate the results in an older version of the game? I’m glad to hear that pad players can do well, I can’t use stick at all.
I don’t think HDR will be changed any time soon but I bet some time in the next-generation of consoles there will be something for the 30th anniversary, probably a new version of the game or something.