Is there a Dragon Ball Z thread? If not

General Discussion
1942

Debates have been intense since the thread’s last bump.

The power levels early in the series were all pretty reasonable, with modest increases over time. Then Freeza had to blurt out his form 1 was at 530,000 while fighting Nail, who was 42,000 :confused:. This is where the slippery slope begins. Who was the second strongest at the time? Goku at 180,000? Why couldn’t Toriyama have said Freeza form 1 was 200,000 or something more manageable, but no. Then Freeza’s second form is at a million? Ok, time for everyone to go home.

On second thought, maybe the slippery slope started the moment Raditz landed and read the farmer’s PL at 5.

Some filler talk starting to creep up so I’ll repost some links.
http://www.mangavolume.com and http://www.mangafox.com has Dragon Ball manga - The entire series, all 500+ chapters. I know a lot of people use onemanga but that site only has the first 14 chapters of DB.

Another thing regarding filler, there’s one more thing I’d like to address. It’s very commonly used among critics of DBZ. Yeah, it’s the “they spend three episodes powering up LOL” argument. No, they don’t.

Here are some transformations/power ups from the manga.
Goku powers up against Ginyu: 285 - 3 pages, he starts at the end of the last chapter and finishes the next page.
Goku goes SSJ for the first time: 317 - Half a page!
Freeza powering up to 100%: 321 - The entire process took about 9 pages of the chapter including some scene changes to King Kai, Gohan, etc. Still only half a chapter long.
Vegeta goes SSJ for the first time: 343 - No power up here, just a one page spread of Vegeta in SSJ mode.
Trunks goes SSJ 1.5 against Cell: 387 - This one took a couple pages, Trunks started at the end of the last chapter which captures the attention of Cell and finishes it at the beginning of this one. Some dialogue in between.
Perfect Cell powers up to full power vs SSJ2 Gohan: CH 410 - Cell’s at full power by page 8.
And everyone’s favorite, Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time: Starts here and ends here. Fuck yeah!

Now we know, all that screaming and yelling are as much filler as Goku and Piccolo taking a driving test.

1943

Again, if you are using Tien’s Kikouho against Cell as a measure of his strength…

You have to take into account that the Kikouho is just concentrated, destructive force. This attack made craters in the Earth back when everyone’s power levels were merely in the 100’s. So obviously, its no joke.

Yet, the best Tien could do with this beefy and destructive weapon was to keep Cell from moving forward. He wasn’t even hurt really, he just couldn’t really go forward. If nothing else, doesn’t that show how weak Tien is in comparison? If Tien was on Freeza’s level, the Kikouho would have done some serious damage at the very least.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain how any human can go from the ten thousands by the end of the Freeza Saga, to a couple hundred million even by the end of DBZ.

That’s not even like one million. Not even ten million. * A couple hundred million. *That’s where they gotta be to actually be able to fight against Freeza.

1944

You still haven’t explained how baddies shrug off energy blasts from weaker characters ALL THE TIME, yet somehow the Kikoho is so powerful Tien can not only nudge Cell, but push him back considerably and continually. You also haven’t been able to explain how the humans can SEE Cell and other baddies movements when even in the Freeza saga a considerably weaker character could not track a much stronger/faster character’s movements.

Tien and little mime boy never stopped training and I don’t think Krillin did either. Yamcha was the main bum in the group, and even then he just liked to train at his own pace. I’ll also have to check if Tien went into the time chamber because if he did that would help, but even if he didn’t the characters were able to train and improve on their own. Mind melds and dying weren’t the only way to improve. They helped a lot more than traditional training, but characters like Vegeta trained vigorously between the Cell and Buu saga and managed to improve without drastic plot device training montages. Hell, I recall Goku refusing to go back into the time chamber because he wanted to train the natural way before the Cell games.

So characters can’t go from being weaker than Vegeta and Nappa to Super Saiyan level? Better tell Goku because I don’t think he knows.

1945

IMO, it started all the way back in Dragon Ball when Master Roshi blew up the moon.

What the fuck?

Someone with only 135 can do that?

…For the last time, no one has been saying this.

There’s a difference between staying completely static and having your progress being so minimal comparison to an other that you might as well be standing still.

People don’t even stay completely static when they stop training; they get weaker. So, if anything, Krillin is actually a lot weaker than he was by the time the Buu Saga rolls around because he hasn’t been training for 7 years. Same with everyone one but Tien when it comes to the human side.

That said, Azrael already explained why Tien can’t be Freeza level.

You keep bringing up Trunks and I really can’t say anything definitive without seeing the movie (other than that’s probably non-canon-y fanservice). However, I’m willing to bet that when Tien fought Trunks, for whatever reason, a)Trunks was holding back since they’re both good guys and b)Trunks wasn’t a Super Saiyan.

I guess I should explain more about why I think Trunks is so fanservice-y.

I mean, besides the fact that Freeza and Cold King utterly jobbed with him because they didn’t take him seriously, you have to keep in mind that this kid same kid went Super Saiyan and tried to attack Goku, who stopped his shit with one finger.

Trunk’s supposedly huge power was all over the place during that scene. Even if you account for a monsterous power boost after Goku surviving his battle with Freeza, it still doesn’t make much sense that the same boy who supposedly beat Freeza at full strength (since I’m pretty sure that why you keep bringing up Mecha Freeza even though we don’t know how much power he lost due to being a cyborg/almost dying) and thus should be Goku’s Super Saiyan level in his normal form, then goes Super Saiyan and can’t even so much scratch Goku.

Yeah…

As far as I’m concerned, Trunks is a horrible indicator of, well, anything in DBZ because his character is so contrived and shitty and basically a more egregious plot device than any other character. (Seriously, he’s from the future and is thus the reason, fatalistically, that Bulma and Vegeta, who have never even liked each other, end up having a family. What the fuck?)

(Oh, and for the record, I’m pretty sure your example isn’t a good one since a)IIRC, it’s well established that Deathstroke > Batman when it comes to hand-to-hand and b)the amount of validity of course depends on the closeness of similarities between the two universes/situations, thus meaning it’s a case by case bias, which doesn’t help your case.)

1946

Well…Frieza was waaay stronger than Krillin, yet he had to dodge kiezan. Or was that filler? Also Napa nearly got fucked up by it too, and he was way stronger than krillin (at that time) too.

Kikoho is just one of those solar flare, kiezan type techs that work regardless. Doesnt mean the said, character is strong himself does it? So i guess thats why Cell couldnt just shrug it off?

1947

that isn’t saying something to you right there? 17, 16 and 18 could all defeat Frieza with ease and yet couldn’t even budge Cell’s second form? Tien kept Cell down a long time, despite not hurting him he held him down, knocking him down over and over again.

lol yeah, because Tien is weak in comparison using his OWN move and knowing how to control it better than anybody and doing the RIGHT thing by only holding Cell down which was the whole purpose of why he was doing it in the first place.
Its Tien’s move and his only. and no one has proved otherwise it could be used as more powerful move if they controlled it.

There is no proof that Frieza using that move would do anything extra than Tien using it. and in fact, it probably wouldn’t resulted in the same aftermath as Tien.

again, Frieza is far weaker than 18, 17, 16 and Piccolo(after fusion). and they could not dent Cell’s second form in any way, what makes you think Frieza would of done better with an attack that Tien knows the best? Frieza had far more powerful techniques anyways that were meant to destroy planets and more. and i doubt even one of them would put a dent in Cell’s second form as it did not do anything to Trunks(which at the time was far weaker than Cell but far stronger than Frieza).

lol like we REALLY know what Frieza’s power level was. its just speculation on what Frieza said. I doubt it was 100,000,000 million. and it is even more speculation to assume Tien was only in the ten thousands after Frieza saga since we never know for sure.

The fact is at what we DO have Tien doing, and rather he could beat Frieza’s ultimate form or not is not entirely known and probably never will be. Tien could possibly be that strong by the end of DBZ to defeat Frieza. We just don’t know for sure. don’t underestimate him though, he has proven against just about every enemy and competitor to be a very powerful warrior.

1948

If anything what you said proves my point more. Trunks humiliates Freeza and is then humiliated by Goku. The power levels keep multiplying over and over through out the series that by the time we reach the end even Goku says “In hindsight Freeza was not that much of an opponent.” Now keep in mind the humans are able to train with Goku and the other extremely powerful aliens. Then they are shown able to provide distractions and delays to new villians that are so overpowered they make Freeza look like the farmer with shotgun. I would be seriously surprised if any of the human Z-fighters (besides Yajirobe, Roshi or maybe Yamcha) had trouble with Freeza at the end of the series.

I bet you a thousand dollars if toriyama had to write a Krilling or Tien vs. Freeza fight he would have Freeza lose.

Also on the deathstroke thing: First, it was just a hypothetical to show that non-canon sources don’t necessarily mean the characters are written out of character or with unrealistic powers. Secondly, I just said it was fight to the death which is not necessarily hand to hand. Prep time beats everything.

1949

oh really huh? so that’s why it worked so well on Buu right? he couldn’t just ‘shrug’ it off.

you guys should catch up on some DB-DBZ. Tien is more powerful than you guys are giving him credit for. but whatever

1950

@ High-Jin: Sigh. (You did not have to quote that entire thing.)

Except that Goku and Trunks are Saiyans.

You…seem to be intentionally missing things like Ki Shima was.

That would be a stupid bet since he would of course have them win.

It’s called fanservice and I’m not going to bet against that in the same series where the creator ruined his own creation by creating villians from celluar bullshit and a wad of gum long after his series should have ended.

1951

Says who?

1952

Frieza is more of a joke after his saga and Krillen and Tien could probably beat him as well by the end of Z. who knows? but Tien and Krillen should have what it takes by then regardless of fanservice or not.

and ruined the series? your opinion entirely. Buu and Cell were great enemies and only villains like this could give Goku and gang a fight. The Buu and cell saga were awesome and glad it did continue like many other people are.

1953

^lol the buu saga was such a joke. If it wasnt for ssj3 no one would give a damn.
Cell was ok at best. it dragged on alil too much for me

1954

Um dude, 18 whipped Trunks’ ass (while kicking Vegeta’s ass at the sametime) who in turn stomped Freeza like he was nothing.

The power levels just get to such a ridiculous degree in DBZ I don’t see why it’s hard for some people to imagine humans could be stronger than Freeza after training for so many years with the people who actually killed him… twice.

This is still a fighting game site right? If someone continually plays with Justin Wong that person is going to get better just by being in contact with such exceptional skill. It doesn’t even matter that the person is only human while Justin Wong is actually a cyborg sent from the future to destroy the fighting game scene. The point is talent rubs off. It’s just a matter of degree. If the humans got even 1% of Goku’s power by training with him and on their own they’d probably be strong enough to take on Freeza.

1955

Did I give you reason to think it was anything else?

Part of the reason I have that opinion is because of how needlessly Freeza jobs to Mr. Nevershouldabeenborn Briefs, Goku being constantly brought back, the eventual joke that SSJ itself becomes, Buu being a shitty villian to begin with, etc.

1956

the fact that he even asked that question tells me he is rusty on DB. There is a lot of evidence including trunks saying that himself. But it is far too obvious to know that 17 and 18 could easily make short work of Frieza. and with 16 it would probably be over very quickly.

1957

instead of a Buu Saga it should have been a Broly Saga instead of those two other Broly OVAs (the third one is bs)

1958

This debate ended here. New discussion: So that special sure was something, huh?

1959

there are many fans of the Buu and Cell saga. and not just for a super saiyan 3 transformation either. in fact, there are many fans that wanted it to continue after Buu. just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean others don’t or ONLY liked it for one or so episodes of Goku’s ssj3 transformation.

1960

I have to remind myself to watch it tomorrow since I don’t have time today.

(Or rather shouldn’t, despite all the time I’ve been procrasinating around this forum and another.)

goes back to typing in Word

1961

Mystic Gohan is already canonically stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks due to how much more badly–gah, horrible grammar–he stomped over Super Buu before the latter got absorbed.