We’re not going to come to an agreement on this. To me it seems obvious that if you look at how Toriyama writes the humans outside of the manga he doesn’t keep them at the same static power level. They are weaker than the aliens, but they still improve. Marginal improvement, but improvement nonetheless.
Eh, what would be completely awesome, is if Toriyama rewrote the DBZ series, and tidied it up and condensed it to maybe about 100 or so episodes. The “remake” episodes could be extremely high quality and with far less filler and repetitive power up sequences, and perhaps even alter the Cell/Buu sagas to be more like Toriyama intended (even though I loved them, you can tell that shit was just kind of…reaching after the Frieza saga). It would cost a shitload of money to do all of this, especially in the type of ridiculous quality (of both detail and animation) I’m thinking of, but it would definitely be worth it, considering it’d be an instant hit and would definitely be profitable.
Sup guys just saw the thread so ill go back and read the last few pages then join in to the topic later peace.
R.D.T.U.
Going from “can’t beat Vegeta and Nappa”, to “I’m on par with a Super Saiyan” is hardly marginal, and that’s what you’ve been saying since 2 pages now.
Wow.
You’re completely missing the initial point of this entire discussion: The humans never become the same level as Final Freeza Level.
Like I said earlier, no one is saying they don’t get stronger, just not nearly strong enough to matter. (And, no, holding off Cell for a small while after surprising him doesn’t really count, unfortunately.)
I mean, it’s not like I hate the humans. If anything, I would (and I’m sure others would) agree with you that humans should have been strong enough to contend with the new threats (or that, preferably, the new threats shouldn’t have surprassed Freiza at all).
I would agree with you if the remade series wasn’t going to inevitably run into the same problem: People wanting Goku to be the hero the entire damn time.
(Besides, if Toriyama really did things like he wanted, then the remake would only go to the Freeza saga.)
This reminds me of something unrelated: Whatever happened to that Evagelion remake?
You…might want to skip the current discussion and just join in on the discussion previous to that about the recent 20th anniversary episode.
That or if you would hit Chichi (before she hit you). :looney:
um, when in HELL did this happen? when did android 19 or 20 fight Tien? guess what? they didn’t!
and what makes you think even for a second that super saiyan Vegeta would get beat by Frieza?? Vegeta would destroy Frieza when he finally turned super saiyan. he was at least as strong as Trunks or stronger when that happened. Trunks surprised Frieza, who shouldn’t of been surprised after just witnessing Goku, but he was still obviously stronger than Frieza by blocking all of his attacks and making it look so damn easy.
Tien couldn’t touch Raditz at early DBZ. After Kami’s training, easily defeated a saibaman,who is equal in strength to Raditz. so you can see what kind of power increase Tien could get after years training with King Kai or by himself on Kai’s planet. Tien’s final attack against Nappa would have killed Nappa if it weren’t for him blocking it at the last second.
The Tri-Beam is a legitimate blast of energy just like any others but can be increased in power while taking life force away. One of the most powerful but dangerous attacks in DB-DBZ. He kept Cell down not once with the first surprise attack, but multiple times. Piccolo, who was already fused with Kami, could not even touch that form. 18 or 17 could not put a dent into him. But the greatest example is 16, who was the most powerful up until that time, was completely powerless against Cell and his strikes were not even phasing Cell. Tien was able to hold Cell off along time despite anything else.
Tien fighting Trunks(canon or not) was done by Toriyama and does show relevance where Tien stands for a reason.
Tien deflected a powerful ki blast from BUU that couldn’t killed Dende, Satan, and possibly kill/.injure Gohan as well. Tien, with help from Yamcha, assisting in knocking a Cell Jr OUT for a few seconds(canon or no, not sure?, it is a good example at at least how strong these guys can be). Tien always trains.
besides Uub, Tien is the strongest human. Yamcha told Krillin that he was the strongest human later on because he wanted to boost Krillin’s confidence and because Tien wasn’t part of the group anymore.
In conclusion, Tien would give Final Frieza and Mecha Frieza a good challenge, but Frieza would likely win. Tien could beat the other forms of Frieza and is easily and obviously stronger than the Ginyu Force, who would just be a complete joke after the Frieza saga anyways. Tien’s power is probably close to Frieza’s maxed out power.
Ultimately I agree with this because it coincides with Tien being the strongest human (and Freeza notoriously toying around with people).
I don’t know if I agree with the other stuff and I don’t really care at this point since most of us are going off of memory and our obvious biases with regard to where Toriyama went with things in the anime whether they were filler or not.
“I’M GARLIC JUNIOR!” 
Since the “official” power levels were posted, I just want to put this out there.
Goku, with Kaio’s training, maxes out at 37K, and that’s with Kaioken x4.
Krillin, after the Guru powerup, hits 19K.
And that’s it, none of the humans get any formal training after the Freeza Saga. They all go off and train individually. I think maybe Tien spends some time in the Room of Spirit and Time. Krillin and Yamucha pretty much stop training after Cell.
Even if we take the anime filler as canon and assume that the humans post Kaio can actually beat the Ginyu Force, Jeice was the second strongest (after the Captain) at 50K.
Let’s be very extremely really generous, and say that the self-training the humans did during the Cell Saga increased their power by 10x. Actually, no, fuck it, lets be benevolent Gods and say they increased their power by a whole 100x. Again, this is self-training, but sure, the humans who were strong enough to take out the Ginyu Force by the end of the Freeza Saga, improved themselves by 100x throughout the Cell Saga.
With all that generousity, that puts Tien at 5,000,000.
Freeza’s full power level was 120,000,000.
So…how exactly does Tien put up a good fight against Freeza again?
garlic jr was fighting against a piccolo that was losing his power, kame was dying, piccolo man handled garlic everytime his power came ba…
ok im out, because we were always debating against people who dont even remember what happened 
higher jin: i cant believe toryama wrote the tien vs trunks fight, now i know how dumb wasting our time is now
Did you mean to do it the other way? Like you realize Freeza > Super Saiyan means that freeza is greater than the Super Saiyan?
I think you meant to have them face this way <
As in Freeza < Super Saiyan, Freeza less powerful than a Super saiyan
Otherwise your list is completely backwards
If Freeza fucked around like he did against Goku initially at like 1%, then Tien could “put up a good fight” until he got beasted by Freeza “getting serious” to crush his spirit.
Not completely, which confuses me since he never clarified.
Imperfect Cell is easily the weakest person on that list, but, otherwise, yeah, it makes no sense.
garlic goddamn motherfucking junior
Gohan could have been the strongest being in the universe…
That is all.
Uh…by the end of DBZ, Mystic Gohan IS the strongest (non-fused) being in the universe. (Fuck Broly and anything from the movies.)
I think what you meant was “Gohan could have been the most important being in the universe rather than practically still being in his father’s left testicle.”
Gohan was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku? I thought they were about even?
Garlic Jr. made no appearance in the the series prior to his appearance in the filler eps, sans the first film, which any braniac could see doesn’t fit anywhere into Dragon Ball. This, filler is bullshit.
The End.
And I don’t know where this whole thing about Toriyama writing the Bojack film came from. Unless I see otherwise, it didn’t happen. Hell, even if it did, it never happened, because the movie doesnt fit anywhere in the storyline. It just doesn’t work.
I agree, let’s just disregard everything in the series that doesn’t conform to our view. It makes things so much easier that way. Afterall, we know more than the people who actually made it and wrote the storylines for it.
It’s marginal when you see how much time went by and how much more ridiculously powerful they all became. Freeza wouldn’t even be able to nudge Cell, much less delay him for as long as Tien did. Regular SSJ Trunks caught King Cold’s sword with his hand and destroyed him like nothing, and we all know how regular SSJ Trunks stacked up against Cell or even the Androids.
As for the Bojack thing look to the right:
Written by Takao Koyama (screenplay)
Akira Toriyama (story)
Even if it doesn’t fit anywhere I don’t think if Tien was lower than Freeza he would’ve been written to be able to hold his own against Trunks. When you look at how powerful the baddies became even the humans would have to be stronger just to be able to provide a distraction, or to even be able to follow their movements.
Fishjie explained it best already.
So you think we are disregarding filler because it doesn’t “conform” to our view? Seriously?
We are dismissing the filler because it makes no god damned sense, in an already convoluted plot line, sir. If that much wasn’t apparent from our constant moaning about how the filler contradicts the entire storyline, then I don’t know what to say.
Let me give a analogous situation:
Let’s say people wonder who would win if Batman and Deathstroke fought to the death. Now an established writer like Grant Morrison writes a “What if” alternate plotline where do they fight and Batman ends up killing Deathstroke. (Purely hypothetical, ignore his no killing rule for this instance)
Okay. Even though Batman and Deathstroke never have a fight where one actually dies in the main storyline, is it or is it not safe to assume Batman would win given the fact that he does in an alternate storyline? Just because they don’t want to kill off Deathstroke in the main story line doesn’t mean he was written out of character, and similarly just because Toriyama didn’t give the DBZ humans the time of day in the manga it doesn’t mean they were written out of character in the TV series or the movies.
You also can’t conclusively prove they are weaker than Freeza. (i.e. bring up an instance where they lose to someone known to be weaker than Freeza late in the Manga.) You’re just assuming they stay static. Ironically, this is exactly what Dr. Gero did when calculating how powerful Goku and his friends would be and he too ended up underestimating him.