Oh god. Goku with telepathy–well, technically already has that with King Kai–and mind control are pretty the only things that could make even more broken.
I really don’t get why Toriyama couldn’t have just made it so that he was teleported home by the aliens, not somehow taught an ability that allows him to teleport anywhere in the universe instantly even if he’s never been there.
There’s no way that should have made past the first draft.
Then, let me put it this way.
At the end of DB, Goku trains with Kami, and with that training, he fights against and beats Piccolo. At this point, Goku is the strongest person in Dragonball, period. Piccolo is a close second, and Tien/Krillin/Yamucha trail behind.
In DBZ, Raditz shows up, and is considerably stronger than Goku/Piccolo. To prepare for Nappa/Vegeta, Goku trains with Kaio, while the humans get the Kami training. This Kami training made Goku DB Piccolo strong, but he was still zero match for Raditz.
And sure enough, the humans got rolled by Nappa, hard. For all their efforts, Nappa wasn’t even that banged up. That’s Tien, Yamucha, Krillin, AND Piccolo to boot (and maybe Gohan to a small extent) and they couldn’t even touch the dude. Whoops, scratch Yamucha, he JOBS to a fucking vegetable. So we can safely say that the Kami training put the humans at DB Piccolo’s level. If we want to be very, very generous, then maybe Raditz level. And then they died.
Now, they’re humans, so they don’t get the benefit of a near death/post-death power-up.
So, Raditz level (generous!) humans go see Kaio. Goku went to see Kaio after getting pounded on by Raditz, and Kaio was able to boost him up to Saiyajin Saga Vegeta level. Maybe.
EDIT
Actually, come to think of it, no. Post-Kaio Goku didn’t beat Vegeta. He had to go Kaioken x3/4 just to keep up with Vegeta, and even then Goku was wrecked while Vegeta was angered enough to go Oozaru. He got his tail cut off and he was STILL able to fight. So Post-Kaio Goku wasn’t even on Vegeta’s level, really.
How in Shenron’s name is Kaio’s training going to take the humans from Raditz level (generous!) to Ginyu Force level? Vegeta couldn’t beat the Ginyu Force, and Goku, POST Kaio training, had to train in 100x gravity, plus the benefit of at least 1 Saiyajin genetics power-up.
i blame the editors. toriyama seems to have made shit logical the first time around. shit got convoluted the more and longer the series ran.
As already stated, it’s the Freeza Saga that was supposedly the end of Dragon Ball, until fan demand kept it going.
Toriyama didn’t design Super Saiyan 4.
Exactly. If you start trying to say filler is “anime” canon, then you only fuck it up more, because you’d have to start saying the films are “anime canon”, because of characters like Garlic Jr.
Good try with that, by the way. That’s why filler means jack shit, because it doesn’t make any sense within the context of anything remotely sane.
Goku escaped via a Ginyu Force pod, IIRC.
zarbon would kill the earthlings…
I have to admit I was kind of sad when Zarbon died, especially since he had personality and even to this day I don’t really like Vegeta.
Also, I like his awesome Australian voice in the English (Ocean?) dub.
Anyway, going back to the video that started all of this, I just found a [media=youtube]gzaCGx5vcs8[/media]
Didn’t they have a lot longer to train with Kaio than Goku did? They were also at a base level higher than Goku was when he trained. Not to mention you’re controverting something that actually happened on the show because it doesn’t “feel right” to you when I’m trying to say with DBZ logic nearly anything is possible. When you think about it the notion that Goku could multiply his power level literally hundreds of thousands of times over from his power level in dragon ball (where he was already far above super human) makes very little sense.
I’m going by what happened on the show. Everyone’s argument is basically they don’t think we should take “filler” into consideration because they don’t like what happens when we do. Filler kind of being a dismissive term for anything that didn’t happen in the manga. So I say fine. If it makes you all feel better then in the manga there is little to indicate the humans are stronger than Freeza, and if there is I’m not remembering it. But there is plenty to support that in the actual TV series.
Sigh. I should just really let Azrael reply to the above, but I’m bored and I’m procrasinating anyway, so…
I don’t think so, but I’m not completely sure about that one. It shouldn’t make much difference, though.
No, they were not for the reasons that Azrael explained already. They went the through the same training Goku did after Goku, so they were basically one step behind Goku all the time until he got drastically stronger in space (which we pretty much know no one else replicated training-wise except for Vegeta during the Cell saga), which is when they fell lightyears behind.
I bolded the part that you seem to be missing even though it’s obvious: Goku isn’t human. He may look it, but he doesn’t have the same physiology as humans ultimately (even though he can mate with them).
Similarly, though you seem to be equating that to just random bullshit (and I’m not disagreeing that it wasn’t), Goku’s immense power boost was at least explained (away) by him being Saiyan. The humans don’t have that luxury to get stronger for reason Azrael already explained.
Again, the problem with is that the anime is entirely based on the manga until they decide to add filler things in that are usually contrary to the manga for reasons of pacing.
I could understand your point if this was one of the series where the anime and the manga differed extremely without regards to filler, such as Fullmetal Alchemist, but that didn’t happen in DBZ since despite massive amount of filler, the same things generally happen.
Goku trained with King Kai when he was at power level 400 (around 900 if you count his power level during the Kamehameha against Raditz). The others trained at levels 600-1800. Piccolo’s max level I believe was 3500, he died, and then trained with them. He was far better than them sure, but they could still keep up. They were still at a base level higher than Goku was when he trained with King Kai and they were training ever since they died in the fight against Nappa.
My memory is hazy, but I could’ve sworn that Kai’s training of Goku was incomplete, or at the very least rushed since Goku had to run back at the last minute to fight Vegeta and Nappa.
I thought they had more time than Goku did to train at King Kai’s place?
Obviously there is the discrepancy with Goku going into Space
Higher-Jin, where are you getting those numbers from? Those don’t really make sense for the reasons that Azrael said.
Also, we’re not really counting Picollo in this since he’s not human.
http://dragonball.neoseeker.com/wiki/Official_Power_Levels
^ I’m pretty sure those power levels were actually spoken aloud in the series.
I talked about Piccolo because he trained with Kaio and the humans held their own against him despite him being almost 3 times stronger than Raditz at the outset who was himself 3 times stronger than Goku when he first got to Kaio.
Hmm…okay. That’s weird…then again I don’t remember the Kaio training from DB that Azrael, only from DBZ. So it’s possible that they did have more time to train in that as well compared to Goku. So I can see what you’re getting at.
That said, I’m not sure how you’re relating this back to your belief that the filler should count for some reason. 
I can see them improving a lot, but not dramatically enough to take out the Ginyu force, especially without even using Kaio-ken.
Kaio finished the training with Goku…he just messed up on the timing, forgetting that Goku had to go back down Snake Way.
Regardless of how long they trained with Kaio…there’s no reason why any human post-Kaio training should have been able to go toe-to-toe with Saiyajin Saga Vegeta. Even watching the fight, Kaio was shocked at how strong Vegeta was. Kaio just didn’t have the skills to teach anyone to be that strong. At least, he didn’t when Goku visited him. …What changed, and how could Kaio do for Tien/Yamucha/Piccolo what he couldn’t do for Goku?
Even if Kaio could somehow elevate the humans to beyond SS Vegeta, remember that even SS Vegeta was no match for the Ginyu Force. SS Vegeta got the Earth powerup, the Zarbon beating powerup, and STILL got manhandled by only Recoome. Those are two major powerups for Vegeta.
Goku got the post-Vegeta fight powerup, the 100x gravity training, and while its never directly stated, he probably got at least several Saiyajin genetic powerups while doing the 100x training (figuring he wrecked himself, then used the senzu to get healthy again). Only then was he able to take out the Ginyu Force.
Again, you’re saying that the SAME Kaio training managed to not only bring the humans up to SS Vegeta level, which it didn’t even do for Goku, but to give them the equivalent of at least 2 Saiyajin genetics powerups, and at least 100x gravity training. …How?
I can’t believe something as confusing, complicated and poorly explained as DBZ is actually being debated.
What if it wasn’t the same training? We don’t really know the extent of what King Kai did, but he was confident enough to let them loose against the Ginyu Force. According to the dbz series whatever he did was enough.
Yes, the anime series’ filler was when he did this; filler as in “goes against anything canon in a more confusing way then some of the crap that’s already happened, which is saying something”.
I still don’t see how you’re defending filler, but since this seems to be impossible to convince you otherwise…
ok, let me just say this again really slowly for anyone who wants to take the shitty filler seriously…
GARLIC JUNIOR
let me just repeat that again
GARLIC JUNIOR
MANHANDLES PICCOLO, GOHAN AND KRILLIN, WHO WENT TOE TO TOE AGAINST FRIEZA.
GARLIC JUNIOR
The easy answer to his question: dbz makes no sense.
@fishjie: Your use of Caps Lock reminds of me how Garlic Junior powered up in the Deadzone Abridged movie.
“I’M GARLIC JUNIOR!” 