Really? I could have sworn that Super Piccolo was pretty much handing Cell his ass until Cell ran off and absorbed what was probably a literal ton of more people.
However, I will admit that I’m really hazy with regards to the Cell Saga beacuse as a little kid I got so damned bored with anime Namek taking literally years that I just decided take a break. Therefore, I only really saw everything after Perfect Cell was “born” with regards to episodes.
That and it’s been a while.
:woot:
me…i love me some girl who can fight.
There may have been that too, I admit. But I thought the real death blow was dealt by Imperfect Cell.
Another thing I just remembered is how Tien arrives to help Gohan fight Buu during the Majin Saga.
^ I was waiting for someone to bring that up. IIRC, Tien didn’t end up really helping at all, though the fact he came instead of staying fuck away is what makes me like him.
Well, I remember, though perhaps “remember” is the wrong word since I saw it recently, that Piccolo got blasted through the chest by Imperfect Cell after he absorbed a bunch of people, which is what you may be remembering.
TS is correct though, as are already the other people that have said it: this is pretty much impossible to concretely decide because everything after Freeza saga is literally so artifical from the villians (lol, androids/cyborgs/jinzofreakingningen and magical beings) to the power levels (various forms of Super Saiyan, little kids who are half-breeds being able to become Super Saiyan, etc.).
(That said, Tien still isn’t Final Form Freeza level. :razz: )
Yeah well i guess we’ll all have to agree to disagree because I think they are.
Although IIRC in the Majin Buu saga Yamcha and Krillin held their own against the fighters of Pikkon’s world, and they were all pretty much well above Freeza and you could even argue they were above Perfect Cell considering how handily Pikkon merc’d them all.
^Filler…
We always point out how easily Future Trunks beat Mecha Freeza and King Cold…but I think that’s kind of an unfair fight. Freeza didn’t even really get started, and King Cold never even transformed. Neither of them were taking Trunks seriously, and by the time they realized maybe they should start fighting for real…they were dead. I think Trunks is the only DBZ character to actually pull out his strongest moves first. 
^ Fine, if you’re talking only about the Manga. But I’m talking about the TV series, and in that case it pretty much counts. Just labeling something as filler doesn’t make it completely irrelevant.
Um…filler DOES mean irrelevant with regards to canon-based discussions like this one. That’s like saying that Super Saiyan Hitler is the stronger human because there was that Anne Frank/DBZ fanfic about it.
Isn’t almost everything unrelated to King Kai regarding the afterlife filler when it comes to the anime? I’m pretty sure it is. I mean, does Pikkon even exist in the manga?
That said, yeah, agree to disagree, especially since I think that it’s complicated by the fact that absorbing/fusing with weak people tends to increase people’s powers abritaribly since you were correct about Nail get his ass handed to him, but then Piccolo with Nail was able to fight a higher form of Freeza. WTF?
Similarly, even by absorbing bunch of regular, weak-ass farmer-level humans, Imperfect Cell got strong enough (at least for a while, though I’m not sure if the boost temporary or permanent) to beat Super Piccollo shortly after Super Piccollo was handing him his ass.
Moral: Aliens are broken.
master roshi is the only broken human…no one is the universe is as perverted as him.
Didn’t Toriyama say he wanted to end the series after the Freeza saga? Wouldn’t that make just about everything after that filler in some sense since he’s doing work due to the money/outside circumstances and not for the sake of the story? Anyway, as far as the TV series cannon goes my points are legitimate. If you’re talking about only Manga then that’s a different story.
It does matter because the anime-only filler is completely random. …Not like Toriyama did a great job keeping up either, but the anime writers just did shit to kill time. Toriyama did want to end the series after Freeza, but at least he actually wrote the manga portions of the Cell and Buu Saga’s. The anime writers are just trying to throw shit out there.
Like, the humans Vs the Ginyu Force on Kaio’s planet. It doesn’t even make sense to have the humans defeat the Ginyu Force there. No way. Even WITH Kaio’s training, the SAME training only made Goku as strong as Saiyajin Saga Vegeta. And I’m pretty sure Goku was stronger than everyone else when he showed up at Kaio’s planet.
So how are the humans, who start off weaker than Goku, going to get that much stronger from the exact same training? It doesn’t even make sense. That training wasn’t even enough to beat Vegeta - Vegeta couldn’t beat the Ginyu Force, and that was WITH powerups AFTER the Earth fight.
You can’t use filler because it just doesn’t hold up.
IIRC I think his intention was, was to end it after the Cell saga.
I recall people saying that, he wanted Gohan to have a “Growing up” story of his own, and that he was meant to destroy Cell from the start. Of course, due to fan demand/complaint, Goku was a heavy co-star.
After the Cell saga, DBZ was still in demand so he decided to stretch it out one more time for the Majin Buu saga, and then after that he left the series, and Sunrise decided that they could branch the story on their own, so we got DB:GT(To Toriyama’s credit, he did make the designs for SSJ 4).
I would have liked Vegeta to get a final boss of his own. In the end Gohan’s growing up story didn’t even matter, because he became a little bitch during the Majin Buu saga, and afterwards.
EDIT
Damned is right. It looks like I mixed two of the points up(The ending, and Gohan becoming the new hero).
^ Nah. He originally wanted to Freeza Saga to be the end, which is part of the reason it took so long since it was supposed to be the climax. I mean, Goku was supposed to die as a hero (…again) overcoming the (then) strongest person in the entire universe.
You’re right in that he basically wanted Gohan to be the new hero, but Gohan ended up getting pushed aside for Goku constantly coming back.
Besides what Azrael said, I will admit that I was getting at the above, that’s only because ultimately I’m not that big of fan of what DBZ ended up being since Toriyama ended up whoring himself out after the Freeza Saga.
I think I said this earlier in thread (or at least planned to), but I can never really hate DBZ for all that it’s inspired for better (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter) or for worse (Naruto).
yeah seriously what kind of shitty retcon was how goku escaped namek?
“hai guyz i was all panicky tryin 2 get teh space shipz to blast offs but it turns out i has teh teleports ability!!!11”
WTF
Why doesn’t it hold up? Because it’s DBZ and everything else makes sense?
Anyway I can use filler if I’m talking solely about the TV series cannon. It was in the TV series, hence it counts. As I said before Manga is a different story, but I still think these things indicate where Toriyama would’ve placed the humans power level wise if he had bothered to dedicate time to them. Especially considering the fact that when he did have to write them in (for the filler) he did make them strong.
I’m pretty sure it was Freeza where Toriyama wanted to end it. Goku turns into the legendary Super Saiyajin and then ultimately dies after beating Freeza. That’s why Freeza was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, Toriyama wasn’t thinking about beyond him. But DBZ was doing too well and those raking in on the cash cow weren’t prepared to let him just stop there.
The Majin Buu saga was supposed to be Gohan’s arc, but complaints brought Goku back.
Cell is okay, and the MB Saga is kind of a mess, but I think Toriyama could have benefitted by not trying to one-up Freeza. Keep the SSJ transformation as something that Goku couldn’t just do whenever he wanted to, and Cell could have been considerably weaker than Freeza but still pose a serious threat. That way other characters could have been more than just useless, and it might have prevented the USSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3/Fusion wackyness that Toriyama had to resort to just to keep up.
Anywhere you go in the Universe, you aren’t safe from Goku
@ Higher-Jin: I…uh, I’ll just let Azrael respond to that if he wants to since I’m done.
Haha.
It’s even more confusing trying to remember it since didn’t he somehow manage to get to some random planet where he was taught instant transmission? I don’t even remember.
i remember gohan and goku were actually originally going to fuse but the fans complained about goku hence why he fused with vegeta. i do remember buu was supposed to be gohans thing. i really wish i coulda seen how he originally wanted to keep it.
the damned: yeah he learned instant transmission and caught the disease that basically kills him in the future and turns shit into days of future past. lol goku was the dumb xavier.
if you take the filler crap as canon, well garlic jr is one of the strongest beings in the entire universe.
here are piccolo and gohan and krillin, who came fresh off fighting against frieza, holding their own (at least in the beggining), only to get the shit kicked out of them by this joke…