From what I heard, Piccolo actually asks Goku if he could have beaten Fat Buu, and Goku replies with “I dunno”. :looney:
Although I never understood the logic behind the “If I use SSJ3, my time on earth becomes shorter!” gimmick. 
Also the androids. You have SSJ1 which is Godlike, and Android’s 17 & 18 were at LEAST 15% stronger, and could PWN SSJ1 easy.
How the hell could a MACHINE possibly be made to be that strong??
Wrap your mind around that one :amazed:
Yeah, it amazes me that Krillin and Piccolo in the Cell saga had probably 10,000 times the power level of Vegeta’s power level in the beginning and yet struggle to blow up mountains with their ki blasts, all the while Vegeta was blowing up entire planets back then.
Lol on the Superman vs Goku comment, I don’t want to go too far into that however Supes loses to even normal human beings and he gets hit by opponents whom aren’t even on the same speed lvl as the elites in DBZ. However, you will have people trying to disbelieve it all the time.
Also, someone needs to tell me if I remember correctly, however but didn’t King Vegeta take out 3 planets with the wave of his hand. Yet King Vegeta’s power level was only 10,000 at best. Now if we gauge that all into consideration here, that King Vegeta could do this feat at 10,000, and I remember back in Dragon Ball Master Roshi with a PL of 139 or somewhere around that regards blow up the moon.
I mean, gauging the power potential, Goku at SSJ3 would be able to wipe out a galaxy without much effort at all. However what bugs me is that you’ll have people saying “Well, these guys have never been shown blowing up the solar system, or galaxy, thus they cannot do it.”
Yet people fail to realize that japanese comic culture is different from american comic culture, where as here in America they do it blatantly and say “I did this, and that, thus I was able to do so.” However in japanese comic culture, they do in such a way that it leaves room for the viewer to actually have to think for themselves, thus my statements earlier that DBZ leaves us clues of just how powerful/fast they are.
I mean, just look at this small part from Dragon Ball of Roshi vs Krillin…they did multiple things within a blink, and this is Pre-DBZ, and obviously Krillin would be way more beastly now then he was back then, and obviously the Top-Tier DBZ characters well…vastly superior to this.
However again, look to people to deny that DBZ fighters “can’t” move beyond FTL speed still, even in the above scene everything that Krillin and Roshi do was achieved in a second… I’ve always felt that DBZ characters, are no different that most anime characters. The reason why planets, solar systems and galaxies don’t vaporize every time they fight, is simple…
They channel their KI or energy towards the opponent, because it’s simply a waste to have the energy completely scatter all over the place, when you can pin point nearly almost all of it’s damage at the opponent. Yes, something like the Kamehameha may leave a gigantic crater, however I’m confident more then 95% of it’s destructive power was focused on the opponent.
That’s why to me, when Goku is fighting at SSJ3, or Gohan is going all out as Mystic Gohan, or Kid Buu is raging all over the place, their attacks are still focused attacks, with it’s main destructive power geared towards defeating their opponent, not “wiping out a galaxy.” I am definitely on the boat of DBZ can move past FTL by not just alittle, but many multi-times that, their reaction times are on a God Like lvl, and that they have more then enough firepower to wipe out multiple galaxies if they wanted too.
For crying out loud, when Goku went in SSJ3, his power was so strong, it was felt all over the different dimensions of the DBZ universe. I agree completely that power level almost becomes irrelevant beyond SSJ1, because beyond that, there is almost nothing that someone like Goku simply cannot do, to make matters worse, they give him Insant Transmission as well, which truly makes him broken beyond any regards, since it makes advantage of speed for the opponent (If they are even faster then Goku to begin with) completely irrelevant.
Yeah this explanation has been used in many a DBZ thread but it there is still an inconsistency. Point is, even if concentrated, a ki blast of such magnitude if it missed, would either create an earth shattering explosion or based on the concentration theory, burrow straight through the earth, which actually has happened in a few instances (mostly in the Buu saga).
I think the most realistic display of potentially catastrophic ki discharge was when Vegeta did his Final Flash against Perfect Cell. Because it was a beam, the core energy was released in straight line and continued through the upper atmosphere relative to Vegeta’s position, diverting the massive release from directly hitting the earth itself.
Another thing to note is that it would be also unrealistic to think baddies such as the androids or super buu cared about the welfare of the earth to constantly focus their ki in a manner that wouldn’t cause massive destruction to the landscape; maybe not to destroy the earth itself, but still crust shattering explosions.
I always laugh because comparing two different characters, with completely different sets of conventions that govern the fictional worlds that they live in, is inherently stupid.
Does not really matter, the point is take both characters from their own universe, bring them together in some neutral dimension or something to fight it out.
Have both characters be at the absolute MAXIMUM level of power that they ever achieved in their own universes. Sorry SSJ3 Goku would crush superman easily.
throws out yellow flag onto the field we don’t wanna go any further into this…this is a path traveled by many ya know…
Hey its not like losing in this match would make superman look bad or anything. Considering that Goku was made so ridiculously powerful, many other characters plenty stronger than Superman would also lose badly.
Goku vs Superman debates are so broken. Neither character has any limit to their strength and to put limits upon said strength would make for more one sided debates.
In reality, however, Kenshiro wins.
they do got limits to their powers…well more supes than goku. but im not gonna go into this.
the characters in dbz got weaker, not stronger
as has been mentioned, even weakling piccolo could blow up the moon. later, they were just blowing up a few mountains here and there. yawn.
Broliy vs Hulk is more of a limitless battle to be honest
This is your problem. Depending on how Superman is characterized, he’s either essentially just a very strong human or essentially a god in the flesh. Could Son Goku take out 1930s Superman? Yeah. Chi Chi probably could. Could Son Goku take out 1960s/70s Superman? Absolutely not.
And that is why this is a stupid argument. Superman doesn’t have any one “maximum” level of power. And, arguably, neither does Goku.
Sorry if I disagree, but I would have to say that it not only depends upon the concentration (focus most of the attack on the opponent) but also the damage scaling that is done before releasing the attack. Reasons why I believe we have certain Kamehameha’s that where more potent then others, as example by the one that Goku was summoning to attack Cell which would’ve wiped out the planet cleanly however he IT and landed it nearly at point blank against Cell, with practically all of it’s focus and damage on Cell.
I think it’s a matter of both, which is why you don’t see entire planets or what not disappearing each time they fight. I mean, Roshi blew up the moon, Piccolo blew up the moon, Frieza easily blew up planets with a whim, yet all of them are vastly inferior to the present day DBZ fighters.
If they didn’t focus their attacks, then what would stop them from blowing up the planet or solar system or galaxy? Because if they can channel their KI into energy, how couldn’t they channel their released attacks as well to make most of it hit the opponent. It makes perfect sense to me.
On the baddies part, almost all of them showed composure (almost all of them showed the intention of not just wanting to wipe out the planet/solar system from existence), with the only exception of Buu who was seen ripping the entire universe by merely screaming, or out right blowing up the planet of Earth. However, even Buu has shown the notion to control his attacks and focus them towards his opponents.
Also, no more debates of Goku vs Superman please, even though I personally believe that Goku would face palm any version of Superman to the ground.
Ahh this brings back memories.Many a nights spent on dbz power level debates.Theres really no end to this.That is why 10 years ago I decided that anything beyond the Freezer saga is nonesense and that ssj1 is the ultimate powerlevel and Freezer died on namek.
Goku vs Superman debates have been going on for as long as the internet has existed. Superman’s powers have fluctuated over time, SSJ3 Goku couldn’t even touch silver age Supe.
So lets just all agree that Goku and Superman are both the hope of the universe, the answers to all living things that cry out for peace, the protectors of the innocent, the light to the darkness and true. They are both allies to good and nightmare to evildoers and would never fight one other.
The answer to this is quite simple. Toriyama never expected to push their level of power this far but as the story progressed he needed an easy way of depicting strength in his characters, unfortunately, it came at the price of logical progression.
The Androids, esp. the ones from Trunks’s alternate future had no composure whatsoever and killed indiscriminately. Buu like you said earlier, was pretty much a loose cannon for the second half of the saga.
The point is, Toriyama would’ve explained the intricacies of ki if he actually planned to, but clearly he just didn’t care about the inconsistencies since no one else probably did at the time.
I don’t understand the hype for a guy that has a gigantic weak spot that rises and is in complete vision 12+ hours of every day
anyway, let that die :rolleyes:
trueseph is on the ball, had this debate years ago and brought up the same points, every body the z fighters fought against (except maybe frieza and kid buu) cared about not blowing up whatever planet they were on, for many reasons.
frieza wanted to fight goku but also wanted to fuck up namek so he gave it a time limit
kid buu just blew it up
also does anyone remember when frieza blew up planet vegeta in base form without breaking a sweat? you may want to call it filler but it wasn’t.
Who do you guys honestly think is the greatest fighter in DBZ?
In my opinion, it’s Piccolo. Multiple times we’ve seen him go up against opponent greater in strength (Raditz, Nappa, Frieza, Android 20, etc.) and he’s always put up a great fight.
Goku is way too naive and forgiving. He’s actually killed very few villains, the only one I know of is Buu.
Raditz was killed by Piccolo.
Nappa was killed by Vegeta.
Vegeta was killed by Frieza.
Guldo, Recoome, Jeice, and Burter were all killed by Vegeta.
Android 19 was killed by Vegeta.
Cell was killed by Gohan.
Goku killed Yakon…yeah.
I mean, sure, Goku’s “beaten” most of the baddies, but the majority of these fights didn’t exactly leave him in a winning condition. He would’ve been killed by Raditz without Piccolo. He would’ve lost to Vegeta without Yajirobe. He would’ve died against Ginyu had it not been for Vegeta. He outright lost to Cell. Without Hercule, Vegeta, and Mr. Buu he would’ve never managed to hit Kid Buu.