TC youre right someone completly new to the versus series or fighting games in general will be terrible in this game. However a player who knows a little about how everything works and would be just meh in games like SF4 or more so in older games like MvC2, SF3, SF2, etc will be godlike or close to it in this game.
I watched that cross counter ep and ya Marn, Mike, and them did kinda go over the top in saying how scubby this game is, but really they aren’t far off either. The game is really easy and xfactor can random out people, it probably wouldnt be to bad if it didnt increase chip damage so much at lvl three, but seriously you can’t even block if your opponent lvl 3 xfactors you. You just have to yell the floor is lava and run away. Anyway I do like the game and have fun with it, but it is quite easy to see why people complain so much about it.
All the Marn bashing is pretty funny. He’s a cool dude and good at games… You’d be better off disagreeing on the merit of the opinion than just saying he’s a jerk. Sure he complains a lot but he does have a valid point, execution (in general, there are some specific exceptions) is fairly easy in this game relative to most fighters…
The point of contention is whether or not easy execution somehow magically precludes the need to be skillful or knowledgeable.
Thinking and being are different things though.
That’s actually the whole point of the chess argument.
I wasnt saying its a bad thing. I kinda find it entertaining when people that think they are good are playing. All this trash talking and they are nothing but trash themselves. The game is a blast to play though.
They’re not like Go either. They’re not like any abstract strategy game.
The only real thing fighters have in common with Chess and Go is the concept of controlling space (and the execution of that is different). After that, the analogy falls apart. Notice that Chess and Go are turn based games, which makes them different from fighters at a fundamental level. In a fighting game, if I decide to pressure you, I do not have to wait for your response. I can simply continue to create pressure until you do something about it. If you cannot think of anything to do on the fly, you’re going to be in quite a bit of trouble. In Chess, if I start putting pressure on my opponent, they have the chance to respond every time I make a move. They have a fair allotment of time on every turn (and during my turn as well) to find a way out of their present situation.
Furthermore, they must respond: they do not have the option of doing nothing. Their position must be altered. In a fighting game I can sit in one spot until my opponent forces me to move. If it does not suit him/her to move me, then there I shall remain.
You can’t block attacks in Chess. All you can do is make it in your opponent’s best interest not to attack you. Also, in fighters there are 3 (usually) attacking options: high, low, throw. In chess there is only one way to capture, but a huge variety of ways to attack.
The goal of the games are completely different. In chess I have to checkmate your king by controlling enough space so as to prevent him from moving (i.e. he cannot make a move that will take him out of danger). In Go one also wins by controlling space. In fighters, controlling space is of great benefit, but the goal is to deplete your life bar with attacks. You might have controlled more space than me the entire fight and I can still kill you.
That brings up slippery slope. In chess, when I take a piece from you it diminishes your options. It makes it more difficult to win. I can take out a pawn and suddenly have weakened your entire defense. That would be like me hitting Ryu with a fireball and suddenly he cannot use lp shoryuken anymore for the rest of the game. Only certain attacks have such characteristics (e.g. Dormammu’s 0D3C liberation). See, in fighters, when I damage you with an attack, it does not diminish your ability to win because it removes no tools from you. I can deplete 99% of your life bar and you can still turn the game around and defeat me. Now, the Marvel series does have a slippery slope, but it is one of the few examples in the fighting game world, and its slippery slope is no where close to the one that Chess has.
There is also the matter of dexterity. None is required to play Chess. Hell, chess doesn’t even require a board. The board is just convenient. In fighting games however, dexterity is a fundamental requirement of the game. In chess I can execute a sound tactic every time I get the chance with zero mistakes, simply because I just lift a piece and move it to a new location. In a fighting game I will likely have to press the buttons fairly quickly while wiggling the stick, all the while being extremely precise, sometimes to the point of having a timing window of a mere 1/60th of a second.
The most striking difference is this though: Fighters aren’t strategy games. Rushdown and zoning are strategies. Your mix-ups? Those are tactics. Your footsies? Those are tactics. There is very little strategy involved in fighters. It’s all tactics. In chess though, strategy reigns supreme. When I throw a low forward in Street Fighter, I do not have to think about how that move will affect the game a minute from now, because it has no effect. In chess, me moving a pawn can have ramifications 30 or 40 moves down the line that I need to consider when I make that move. That’s strategy. Now, tactics are very important as well in chess, but good strategy is how you win the game. Go is even MORE strategic than chess, so it is so far from fighters that you even mentioning it is silly.
I guess people in the community want to think fighters are just as complex and mentally challenging as chess, but sorry guys, they’re just not. Don’t get me wrong, fighters ARE thought provoking and complex and all that jazz, but they’re just not on the same level as chess. Appreciate that they do reward thinking, but appreciate that they reward a different kind of thinking. Fighters reward real time tactical insight. Chess rewards deep strategic planning as well as tactical thinking. They’re vastly different, and the community really needs to stop trying to reach for something that isn’t there. Appreciate and celebrate your game for what it is.
TLDR version: Chess is turn-based and strategic with tactical elements, whereas fighters are real-time and more or less completely tactical. Chess requires no dexterity.
Am I really? So did you practice the ROM infinite till you could get it down right or for a few more loops? Obviously you did because you stood a fighting chance, but I bet you could admit your Day-1 Mags wouldn’t have stood a chance. If anything you’re just discounting the practice you put in to get better and sayin the only reason why you stood a chance is because the game is easy. Also, you didn’t get the win, you almost did, but you didn’t.
JWong, Marn, Daigo…they all lose rounds and sets, but I bet you they’ve downloaded your play style and wont let you do that to them again, which brings me back to my whole point in saying a veteran will always have an upper hand because their experience lends it to them. But when they start complaining and saying that the game makes it easier for noobs to win or “if a noob picks sentinel and I don’t I’m going to lose”…old dog mentality or not, that’s something I can’t tolerate.
If they came out and said “Yes it’s easier for new players to win, but I’m a vet and I’m still going to do everything I can to stop them, no excuses” then that’s something I can accept.
Don’t want to watch it again, but I got the impression that Marn was griefing about X-factor making random wins too easy (hence scrubby). Didn’t strike me that he was that bothered about the lowered execution barrier.
I’m saying that the jump from MVC2 to MVC3 has dramatically lesser the gap between casual and tourney players. I’m not saying whether that’s a good or bad thing(cause honesty this game is too much fun), I’m just saying there’s a difference.
That’s exactly what I saying. To go from being barely competitive in MVC2 to standing a chance against a MVC2 vet in a couple of days says something. It says that the execution barrier has sunk into the abyss (no pun intended), and it’s not hard to compete in this game.
Upper hand due to experience? in this game, it’s more like an upper finger, and you don’t need any veteran experience to do the combos in this game, especially not with sentinel.
That statement wouldn’t change the fact that they think the game is easier to play, and they’re right.
I don’t care if you like the game or not(I like it), just don’t pretend it’s wasn’t heavily made with scrubs in mind.
Oh okay… Well I’ve made my opinion clear on execution not really being critical to making a game skillful. But It’s also a very different game too… I mean I’m pretty good at ST, but terrible at Alpha.
Experience isn’t about the combos, that’s just memorization. Experience still wins you games in MvC3.
It’s not necessarily bad. It doesn’t really bode well for the longevity of the game is all.
If I can just pick up the game, and with a couple hours of practice, have a fair shot at beating anybody, then why would I spend my time trying to dissect the game? Or spend more time even practicing it?
I think that’s what most people mean when they say that this game is really fun, but also really scrubby.
That said I thinks it’s still way to early to tell if them game will or won’t go deeper than rush-in, x-factor, win. It’s the first week and people are finding out new tactics everyday.
I guess im enjoying the game. I have a list of generic complaints that have been said over and over already. (x-factor being too good, Defense being bad in general, damage being way too high)
I don’t think the complaints are a result of people not wanting to open their minds to the game as some would say. I myself am trying to to maintain an open mind and I ended up having the same complaints as everyone else. I’m going to try and stick it out though because this is exactly how I remember marvel 2 being. When it first touched down, everyone said it was bad but then it ended up having one of the longest tournament lifespans of and fighting game ever.
I honestly feel that everyone is frustrated with the game because you die so easily right now. With time I think people will come up with tactics that make us all wonder what we were even whining about in the first place. Or at least I hope so.
I will say that I do not feel x-factor will stand the test of time. I think it’s going to be just as hard to deal with as it is now now matter how good people get at the game. Something needs to be done about it. It just gives you too much.
I would like also say that the post quality found in this thread leaves a lot to be desired. Without adding too much to the festering pit of common human intelligence found here I would like to say the following:
If you think Marvel 2 is random, you’re just bad at it.
I guess people forget that MVC2 wasn’t all fast fly,roms,triangle jumps etc. in the beginning. Thats like getting out the ghetto and making it big but trying to deny your roots. I still have lots of hope for this game tho,I think it will evolve into something nice down the road,ppl need 2 stop acting like everything said about this game is set in stone.
Just to make sure you understand, in the concept of games like this “random” doesn’t refer to anything truly random, just the way a match can swing off something simple and quick…which MvC2 has lots of.