A lot of fighting games from the early boom were like this, before rushdown and crazy combos became the general focus. Samurai Shodown 2 and especially 1 are very much about commitment to your attacks (great rewards demand great risks). The later Samurai Shodowns are, as well, but not like those first two.
fixed
now that sounds better
I kind of understand the OP, at least in regards to execution heavy games. The inputs are arbitrarily assigned, even if they now “make sense” to you (hadoken obviously is QCF! Of course! How could it be anything else?!). Be entirely honest with yourself: these inputs are pointlessly designed and have no place in fighting games. If they really wanted to reward execution and have a genuine relation to the gameplay at hand, then bam, the kinect is there for fighting games to use now.
When you point out issues with using the kinect, you will be pointing out issues that are not readily apparent in fighting game control schemes. Sadly, Super Smash Brothers is the direction fighting games should be going in terms of control scheme: simplisitic, allowing the player to do what he wants, and nothing more.
Let’s not bite the bait. Everyone, proceed.
Street Figher used to be about execution too, but SF4 brought an end to that
Ugh, I wasn’t baiting or trolling! It’s just my opinion.
i actually broke out laughing when i read that. the visual is too good.
in 4 you can take a nap in between hits and still confirm them. you can basically fall asleep, wake up, and then properly block an overhead too.
smash is not the direction anything should be doing anything towards. its simply different. its a fun way of handling things but it feels totally different. a lot of us ENJOY these ‘hard’ inputs. why shouldn’t the game itself be somewhat challenging? what the hell is wrong with that. i guess all driving games should imitate mario kart then.
your opinion is stupid as hell.
sf4 has NO offense in it when you compare it to every other modern game right now. That just how I personally feel about it
t6, ttt2, bbcs2, mvc3, kof13, even mk9 has more offense than sf4. Even the worst character in vampire savior has more offense that any character in sf4 and vs made in 96.
technically, you could call that offense but when its compared to everything else, it just doesn’t feel like offense. Look how long it takes for characters to command dash in that game! its a disgrace honestly. I can dash back faster than ken\ryu in real life than they can in a fucking game and I’m supposed to believe they’re world calibur fighters? they can’t even run for fucks sake!! are my world calibur fighters too stupid to run? I can magically light my hand on fire, spin in a circle 20 feet across the ground, chuck plasma multiple ways but when it comes to running, I can’t do it? yea running is too supernatural, spinning 1 foot above the ground horizontally for 20 feet is definitely more normal…
the restriction to the engine is actually making for a worse game IMO. If there is one SF like game that is better than SF, I would pick the KOF series. I don’t think enough people pay respect to that series but its pretty hard to play properly. It has every fundamental element in it SF has and then adds offense to it
somebody give this guy a weekly article.
I’m not going to be the guy to start the conversation about Smash, but I will tell you that you Don’t Get the Point of inputs.
If SPD was forward+HP, the game would be entirely different. If Sonic Boom were inputted via the special button, the entire concept of Guile as a character would be ruined. Special move inputs are there purposely as a barrier to the move itself, not in a “nyah nyah you can’t play if you don’t learn how” way, but in a “Sonic Boom is so good that you can literally only do one every other second” way. That doesn’t even count the concept of option-selects, which would be fucking bananas with single-button or simultaneous-button inputs. Shit, just watch this:
[media=youtube]he0tuVgHJZg[/media]
Yes, the quarter-circle forward = fireball motion is more or less arbitrary out of context, but out of all the motions that follow a fluid pattern (as in, not requiring you to go back to neutral or switch direction), it is one of the most intuitive. It begins and ends on cardinal directions, and it does not cause you to jump. Finally, it ends toward the opponent as an offensive gesture. The motion is easy to understand and makes sense. It ceases to be “arbitrary” the moment you play the game. It also requires a minimum of 3 frames to input (a good deal of investment), and you cannot block while inputting it-- the last point being incredibly important for a move that controls so much space on the screen without leaving yourself vulnerable. Contrast: Hurricane Kick moves Ryu forward in such a way that he can be hit out of the move during its active frames.
To claim that we are being dishonest with ourselves and then make a more divisive claim that special move inputs have “no place in fighting games” is to demonstrate a great lack of understanding of the actual design concepts behind the game (and are nowhere near qualified to make such a statement). In other words, you don’t know shit about fuck.
There’s another important part of special move inputs that people tend to forget about - the fact that they allow for the move to “fail.” the chance of failure is an important part of fighting competitively. It allows for an element of unpredictability that a skilled player can capitalize on. If this were an RPG, this would be like giving a move a percentile chance to hit/miss, likely based on a dice roll. The difference here is that that chance to fail is determined not by an arbitrary percentage and/or a dice roll, it’s all up to the players skill. This all ties in to the arcade design philosophy of “only the skilled survive, the rest go back to the counter to get more change/tokens.” Look at all the great Japanese arcade games, all of these are hard as fuck, but all can actually be beat (and are designed to be beat) on a single credit - it’s all down to skill. It’s the same with fighting game move inputs, they’re designed to reward the folks who are dedicated enough to spend time mastering the game.
Check out the scrubquotes thread. I’ve responded to this type of ignorance quite well (when people respond with one-line ad hominems, you know you’ve won, lol).
Anyway, the game in its current state is partially because of its pre-assigned inputs. You’re thinking, “oh, he’s talking about how the game engine is RIGHT NOW. It is impossible to make adjustments or changes in any other way, even though there are patches that do so. Ergo, there is no resolution other than inputs. Yes, I know people tweak engines and computer programs are by design, but only inputs are ways to adjust unfair aspects of the game.” It’s ludicrous.
For example, why can’t they change the aspects of sonic boom to make it like Ryu’s hadoken if that (changed inputs) became the case? Aren’t they one-in-the-same? Just projectiles? Again, if you’re picking apart this example and saying they would be the same character, you’re missing the point. It would be showing that - yes - they would be the same character, but there are indeed ways to adjust for “easy inputs” to make the game balanced, so your argument should go out the window.
Also, don’t think I want established fighting series to change: the input is pretty much part of the game now. I’m just talking from an overall fighting game design stance.
Finally, not to bait or troll more (not to sound like I was before, but I’m just being honest), you’re not showing how the motions relate to the move. You’re showing that it’s designed to make the move fair. Two different things. In Tekken, if I see someone do something, I can usually figure out how they did it based on which limb they used, which is more realistic (see it, try to do it). In SF and other 2D fighters, you need instructions. This was what I was talking about. SSB is similar to Tekken in that regard.
So, if you can show me how a sonic boom looks like a “back for two seconds forward plus punch” more than “forward punch” or other inputs, then we’re on the same topic. Otherwise, stop shitting about the wrong fuck.
@d3v
Didn’t we already discuss and drop this in the scrubquotes thread? It seems no one wants to talk about this without resorting to ad hominems anyway. Agree to disagree? I admitted I totally could be wrong anyway. However, when people give examples of games (ZOMG, Sonic boom Zangief frames cannnot increase!), they look stupid. If people can actually open their minds and think more broadly, more openly, like, “Yeah, a fighting game like it is now, it wouldn’t work, but maybe tweak here and there, and things change and - oh! - here’s something else we can do with this!” would be more constructive than just saying, “Argh, I can’t come up with good arguments against you, so you’re stupid!”
I’d be happy to discuss this honestly and politely in a more appropriate thread. I could be wrong entirely, but I would like to explore this type of game design more (sans “you’re stupid” comments). Ignoring that “one button presses” wasn’t even what I originally meant, it’s shocking how much people latch onto a wrong idea just so they can look right (not you, but others).
One of the most annoying memes in FG discussions these days is that “offensiveness” should be measured in terms of how quickly you need to be able to react.
The only one being ignorant is you 
They are different projectiles. It wouldn’t be sonic boom if it functioned (in input and frame data) just like Ryu’s Hadouken or any other way. That’s why it’s a charge motion, they could make a better fireball but now when and how it can be used is different than Hadouken. You probably think “Sonic Boom” is just a name, when at this point it defines a class of projectile.
/facepalm
The motion is related to the move because the input defines and determines its uses. Take a look at Third Strike: most SAs are qcfx2. This makes its usage much easier, its utility is better. No “If I was charging I could’ve punished that”, it’s easier to use, thus easier to apply in more situations.
Are you saying what I think you’re saying?
Yes, you are. Nothing in any game realistically makes sense. In Tekken, the moves you perform didn’t take you years of training and dedication to do, it’s just a button press. In SSB, it’s just a button press. You’re complaining that sonic boom doesn’t look like a move you would do walking back then forward + throwing a punch? I’m surprised you even said this seeing as how it’s not a move you can perform realistically.
If you think one button presses for special moves are awesome and the next step in fighters, play Brawl, Blazblue with the right analog stick or MvC3 in simple mode. You’ll probably realize you don’t have all the special moves available and ignore it as a legitimate reason why these “pointless” inputs exist. Then when you’re doing your one motion specials without flaw like OOOH REACTION TAGER BUSTER IS SO GOOD! ignore that the motion assigned is designed to limit it’s uses and create a risk of jumping if you screw it up.
You say change the moves frame data and startup and damage and etc. and fail to recognize it’s no longer the same move and completely destroys your own argument because you recognize right here that the change risks moves becoming too strong if their inputs were changed to be done more easily.
Mike Z is a game designer, maybe you’d be more inclined to believe him when he explains why things work the way they do.
I noticed 3S hasn’t been brought up in this thread as an example yet.
And away we go…lol
Third strike is a VERY similar game to SF4(not in a lot of ways obviously) but in the key ways. SF4 is just A.) Slower B.) No parry C.) WAY more buff specials/EX’s
Honestly these three differences ruin the game for me as compared to third strike. SF4 ultimately is the “Knock em down and then guess right on their wakeup game.” OR alternatively “I just go knocked down… maybe I can guess right and OS my way to some damage on wakeup”.
Of course SF4 series is uber defensive. They gave nearly every character one or more moves that beat damn near anything put against them. Factor in that many of those moves can be cancelled or FADC’d to be completely safe… and how the fuck could you wind up with a mixup oriented game?
Sure Poonko can beat diago 2/3 matches by forcing random guesses the whole time and hoping for the best. Would he beat diago in 2/3 sets of 5 like that. Hell fucking no… IMO…
The charge vs quarter-circle difference is what basically defines Guile vs Ryu. Guile is inherently more defensive than Ryu because he has to hold back or down to do his most powerful moves. You say that if both the hadouken and the sonic boom were the same input (say, f+P) they could be adjusted in other ways to retain that characterization. I’d like to know what your ideas would be, because changing the damage or speed or whatever wouldn’t really make them different.
I’m pretty sure the reason the qcf motion was conceived in the first place (back in SF1) was because Capcom wanted more moves than there were buttons. Admittedly, this not really an issue in SF1, since I believe there was only a punch and a kick button, but in SF2 I don’t think anyone wanted to fumble with more than the 6 buttons given. The qcf motion is probably the easiest and most natural command for the joystick, given that single direction moves were taken up by command normals. It’s a literal flick of the wrist. Your argument might hold merit if game developers weren’t in each iteration trying to make the hadouken more reliably pulled off, with things like input buffering (or whatever it’s called that makes d, df, P, f throw a fireball) and such. I will agree with you on moves like Geese’s Raising Storm, which is a move I feel scaled power to input difficulty (though even then it doesn’t take that much practice to get down in later games).
Also, if you don’t want people to think you’re trolling, don’t say we should be inputting with the Kinect. I can honestly see more people dropping shit with that than with these “difficult” quarter-circle motions.
read the arguments, I’m a neutral party and azurewolf is just dead wrong IMO, sorry. The sooner you accept that, the faster you can move past it. brookeloose explained it really well, kind of hard to argue against that. Execution isn’t arbitrary, it has an INCREDIBLY important function and if you think toning down the execution level in fighting games is the right thing to do, you just don’t know how fighting games work on a fundamental level.
Smash having simple friendly controls is one of the biggest lies in the genre. Right along with “less buttons=easier to play”.
When you have less buttons it gives the illusion of an easier game but you get much less available inputs for your moves so you have to map more moves to command motions and multiple button presses which are harder than one simple button press. Case in point VF vs Tekken.
In Smash, because it’s only 2 buttons and no motions, they mapped different moves to the same inputs with that horrible “tap lightly on the directional to do move X, and tap harder to do move Y” mechanic and that control system is actually harder than doing hadoukens and shoryukens. Under pressure it’s hard to tap just lightly, and I’ve played in smash tournaments so I talk from personal experience.
This is a bucket of bullshit.
“A game I don’t play has different inputs than the inputs I’ve used for years and years, so the fact that I have to relearn inputs makes the game hard!”
or to phrase your bullshit even harsher
"I can’t do it, it must be hard!"
Have you EVER tried to teach a kid games? I have grown up with a much younger brother and sister, and I’ve attempted to teach them both fighting games and smash to varying degrees of success. Things that come easy to you, ya know, after doing them for years and years, you take for granted. Dashing was really difficult to teach my brother and sister, they couldn’t get it consistently. Good luck getting them to get fireballs without jumping. SPD? Charge motion? Oh now you’re just fucking joking.
But to someone who is brand new to video games, and who grew up with an analog stick as their primary means of input in video games, tilts come natural. Tilts and smashes are baby shit, litterally. I’ve seen it time and time again with my brother and sister and every munchkin I’ve ever played with.
Smash inputs are easy, you just really really really really fucking suck.