-Throw escapes which are useless
How is escaping around 50dmg useless?
People that don’t buffer a throwescape into their 5f punishable moves suffer damage. And DoA really wouldn’t work with a VF throw system since throws is basically the only guaranteed damage to punish with, imagine how strong counters would become if you also could bufffer a bunch of throwescapes into that.
It’s not in terms of the damage you escape, but the application. You can’t really throw escape on reaction (except OH throws); the input for throw escapes are also the same, so it lacks depth. This also applies to DOA3, but I’m criticizing DOA4 because it was supposed to fix it, however I’m being a little biased here so I’ll just drop this point. However in the future throw-breaks need to evolve into a useful tool.
-Sabaki’s which are useless
I agree, pretty much every sabaki except Lei Fang’s 236P is useless, and that’s a situational sabaki aswell that’s only useful against a very small portion of the cast.
However, if sabaki’s were as powerful as in VF the defensive player would always have the advantage over the offensive one, because we have instun counters.
I don’t quite understand that last part, were you implying that we would be able to Sabaki out of stun? Anyway, my point was that there is no real reward for them, and it doesn’t really work in DOA because the opponent can just counter afterwards. So either take them out of the game or personalize them for DOA; give them a guaranteed follow-up? Give them a lift stun like Ein’s 3p so they can’t slow escape it? Maybe even sabaki launchers? One of Lei-Fang’s is good because it can knock you back; all I’m saying is that there is no point in having useless systems.
-Positioning which is useless, A. because you can hardly move in the first place, and B. because what reward do you get for it? I would say that knocking someone down a level is the only one, but I won’t even mention that as it doesn’t kill opponents anymore…wtf!?
Positioning is important because there are so many dangerous elements in the game, and you don’t want to be exposed to this yourself.
Nobody tries to position themselves unless you’re a bit ranged, or during a knockdown. Also, knocking someone down a level is more a punishment half the time than a reward since you’ll have to guess between their rising kicks, unless it was a knockdown from a cliff. I use characters that can lock you against the wall and play a good oki of game on you where you actually have to guess what I’m going to do and rising kicks really won’t save you from it.
Not to mention I’ve got attacks that won’t let them slowescape the wall either.
Who said positioning wasn’t important? Again, application. It’s almost useless in DOA4 because it’s so hard to position yourself in the first place. Then, again, you don’t get much rewards for it. Say you knock someone into a wall, having positioned them there, you don’t get any guaranteed damage cause of the stupid slow escape system and wake-up kicks. What if you knock them over a parition, what’s the reward then? You’ve thrown or hit them down the stairs while they had little life left, and the system screws you over by keeping them alive. In DOA3 you got lots of rewards for spacing, one of the main things I liked was how you could throw an opponent into the wall and get the guaranteed juggle for extra damage; e.g. Hayabusa’s 66p+f hit’s the opponent behind you and into the wall behind the opponent…now if you successfully did this while you were too far, you wouldn’t get the juggle, but space it correctly and you can.
-Strategy…useless. Want to create a set-up using the environment? Too bad, you can’t move properly. Want to put someone into a frame trap/s and try to control the pace of the game? Too bad, no advantage on block. Want to set-up a decent oki strategy? Too bad, wake-up kicks own you, and they own you too much…you can get counter hit if you fail, and the opponent can get up with the advantage of having you in stun. And there’s more…
Funny, how I seem to be knocking people into walls and keeping them there all the time to do what I stated earlier. Yes, there are hardly any frame traps in the game aside from Hitomi’s 2P against everyone, and Kokoro’s and Ayane’s 2P against some of the cast.
Ok: “I use characters that can lock you against the wall and play a good oki of game on you where you actually have to guess what I’m going to do and rising kicks really won’t save you from it.” Can you provide examples, and tell me which characters do this? As I’m actually interested, and you’re making it sound like a secret.
However you aren’t even addressing my points individually. You are making an ambiguous general statement that doesn’t counter my argument/s. Also, which opponents are you “keeping there all the time”? Because I’d want to question the level of these players…
-Knowledge…useless. Why have knowledge when you can just, guess? Knowledge of actual moves are pretty irrelevant, and it’s all knowledge that just passes to you as common sense.
Knowledge turns guessing into prediction.
Knowledge let’s you use character specific tactics.
More knowledge will give you the edge over your opponent in every field, just see how far random countering gets you.
No one mentioned random countering. I see this argumentative tactic alot; make up something or assume the opposition meant something that you can provide a counter to. So anyway, I already stated what knowledge I was citing, and stated that most of the knowledge you gain in DOA4 is just common sense, it’s basics.
“Knowledge turns guessing into prediction”: Isn’t predicting something common sense? What, I have to read a book on how to predict an opponent?
“Knowledge let’s you use character specific tactics”: That’s knowledge of a character, that comes very naturally. You pick up a character, you obviously aren’t going to play them like another character are you? Knowing launchers is extremely basic; knowing punishment tools is also primitive, anyone will figure out as soon as they see a move if it’s effective for punishment on whiffed opponents.
“More knowledge will give you the edge over your opponent in every field”=This only applies to good players vs noobs. Think about it.
-Guard breaks, useless. “Hey I broke you guard! Err, so what do I get for that again?”. Seriously, most guard breaks are slow, and you get nothing for them?
There are some guardbreaks that don’t give frameadvantage, and yes that sucks, but there are many that gives either frame advantage or unblockable hits. Kokoro 22/88P sidesteps AND guardbreaks AND is safe And only gives a slight disadvantge which means that your jab loses to theirs, but wins against their mids, however you are out of range of their jabs unless you jab yourself, the move also has the ability to knock into walls from far away and sidestep alot of moves hitting them in their back leading to guaranteed damage. Eliot’s 236K gives 10f of advantage on block and is hard to react too, especially since he’s got many different moves to pressure with from a distance. Kasumi’s and Christie’s charge attacks give enough frame advantage for jabs to become unblockable, Christie’s dokuja fujin 4P also gives a good amount of advantage.
Christie and Kasumi, 2 out of how many characters? I didn’t say ALL of them were useless. But the point of a guardbreak is to give you nice frame advantage; so what I’m saying is that it’s pointless having a guard break if it doesn’t do that. Also, this is for DOA in general, I don’t believe you should be able to counter from a guard break, but you should definitely be able to SE. It seems stupid having you guard breaking animation canceled into an OH.
-Blocked someones heavily disadvantageous attack, and you want to retaliate with another attack e.g launcher? Nah, you can only punish them with fast throws that do little to no damage and almost all of them don’t even give you decent set-ups.
Use a stronger throw than your 7f then, I heard Spartans 12f throw does 70dmg, Hayabusa’s does 75, Eliot’s does 69 and 87 against walls.
Standing sweeps, as an example, are punishable with these throws.
Most attacks aren’t punishable with these throws. Are standing sweeps the only example you can give me? Even then, there aren’t even many characters with standing sweeps, just off the top of my head Leon, Hitomi and Nicole are the only ones that come to mind. And still, you’ll be punishing more than just standing sweeps…
-I can see your attack, I wanna dodge and retaliate with an attack of mine. Dammit, I can’t move properly; oh shit, your move tracked me like a damn stalker and you HI-COUNTER STUN me! Fantastic I say!
If you could see their attack, how come you didn’t counter/parry it?
I heard that counters do alot of damage and only have 1f startup.
Getting hi-counter blown pretty much only happens online since you won’t have enough time to block reactivley when your opponent does something.
Oh I dunno, why do people use the 8 way step in SC? Why do people SS in Tekken and VF? It’s about set-ups! I don’t wanna sit there and counter all day, it’s braindead. I want to make people whiff their attacks and retaliate accordingly. However I guess I’m semi wrong in the case of DOA4 because in order for this flaw to be fixed, many other flaws must also be fixed at the same time. For example, I WOULD want to hit you into a wall for guaranteed damage, but there is none. Some instances do work however, such as juggling someone and edneing it by knocking them down stairs. What if that opportunity is there? I don’t wanna counter, and want to go for something greater. This goes back to the arguement that DOA4 is too basic.
And parrying isn’t too useful when it just puts you in another guessing situation. Why parry when you can counter? It’s not like you can get any guaranteed damage of parries in DOA4.
-Ah, he countered, now it’s time to atta-WTF it was still active?!
If you noticed them countering, why didn’t you throw?
Nothing is more rewarding damage wise than punishing holds with throws, so basically you’re getting annoyed because you did the wrong thing.
Or maybe I’m Christie and have crap thows? Maybe according to the situation I want to go for a launcher instead? Knock them away? Knock them down a level from a distance throws can’t? You can’t defend the retarded active frames of counters.
-I knocked you over a partition! Oh wait, damn. You can just counter as soon as you land on the other side, and if I jump over for the follow up you’re at the advantage!? Ok, now no one wants to jump over; let us proceed to walking around it…
You do realize that if you jump over doing nothing but holding block, you are invulnerable to attacks?
I’m not sure on that one, I know I’ve been hit back over even after doing so, and I’ve seen it happen alot in past matches. Why do you think most people walk around? Also, even if that were true, your opponent still has the advantage as the pace is now in their hands; you are jumping over and they are there waiting for you, and now YOUR back is against the partition…
-Man, touching you is like touching hot water, I’m afraid to do it for too long or else I’ll get hurt for it! Putting your finger in hot water is just like stunning or getting your attacks blocked on an opponent, you feel the urge to pull out if you’re in there for too long.
This is semi-true, it happens way more often that people try and counter a launch attempt every time rather than trying to counter moves used to build stun.
So it really isn’t as risky stunning someone as some people claim, just look at Hitomi/Leon/Zack, they can keep people in a stun game the whole match and they seldom get countered. While other characters like Ayane, Hayate, Hayabusa, Gen Fu etc. benefits more from going for a quick launch because their stungame is easier to deal with. Then there are those characters that can work both a quick launch or stun game like Kasumi/Eliot.
It’s also due to frame traps and elements not being there anymore. What I’m saying is that the amount of offense you want to put on an opponent is more limited than it should be.
Edit: Now people may think I’m flip-flopping between loving and hating the game, but that’s not it.
It’s just that I knew that PL’s list would make people start hating on random things that really aren’t game breaking and can be dealth with. The other list which I previously wrote still stands aswell.