Regardless of if you make a kill with or without meter is irrelevant. The point of the matter is one you truly can’t get out of and uses resources while the other gives you a chance to escape and builds resources. How are people not seeing this? Storm has very few combos that build her own meter and deal decent damage on her own. All the infinite does is give her what other characters could already do but at a much slower pace. Spiderman on the other hand not only can build a his own meter and do 100% combos on everyone outside of Thor, he can also build meter put you in an easy to escape reset that people either forget or ignore to get out of and then build that same meter back killing all, to include Thor, for essentially a meter free kill. What’s the difference? The opponent still gets their meter from the combo plus their chance to escape yet die while I still build that meter while doing the combo. All these infinites are doing is giving more characters that option, and the characters that already could ToD an extra option to use. You can’t say two things that are the same in principal are different because of preference.
A Meter neutral (or worse) ToD that only works off certain confirms isn’t the same as full kill that works of any confirm and fills up all 5 bars. It just isn’t.
The preference part comes in at the TAC mechanic. I think a QTE mechanic governing all this is disgraceful, but that, is preference.
you are still not accounting anywhere near enough for the infinites giving your opponent a shitload of bar too. remember blackheart’s infinite in MvC2? one of the first things anybody said about it what as how much meter it gave your opponent
my 2 cents on the whole thing
the infinites most likely aren’t sticking around but i seriously doubt they’d kill the game and it’d still leave us with a good amount of playable characters. it still does more for the top tiers than anybody else but it’d be interesting to see how things would play out
I understand it gives the opponent a shit ton of meter along with yourself as well. That’s just part of the combo system. As for the hit confirms, those ToD’s I was mentioning were off a c:l:, that’s to say they also work with other starters, so you’re still coming up short and saying they are different.
Actually I did.
Like I said. An attacking character with meter is horrifying. A defending character with Meter has to get out before he can do anything.
Also, I think you miss my point a bit.
My argument about the power level is about proving that these are the most powerful things in the game.
My argument about how all this power comes out of start of round and TAC, is about how this all dumbs the game down into something closer to asuras Wrath than a fighting game.
Also consider for the meta. The existence of these infinites just made meter management borderline irrelevant. That’s not adding to the game.
that wasn’t my example though. In this game, a single 2A is a clean hit.
What about 4 2As and a shopping cart, because that’s a more common confirm. And what about off the throw. Cause that’s pretty damned important.
And don’t discount that Meter. Just because your opponent got meter too doesn’t mean it’s even. You are the one at a large advantage in the welcome mixup. And with a decent meter db character, the other guy isn’t gonna get to use his for a long time.
Asura’s Wrath was awesome
This brings up the stock of any character who could open you up easily but couldn’t kill.
Magneto can do his 5A 8 times while the drones hit you and TAC into whoever for the kill when normal that would be scaled to hell and not kill.
It completely removes the doesn’t build meter doesn’t do a lot of damage limit when you can just throw Dorm/Mag second to use this infinite.
if the beginning of round is such a big deal then shit people might just start counterpicking other people’s first characters with chars of their own… just like people did vs. MvC2 magneto! people had that shit figured out so carefully they knew exactly which normal to buffer to beat Magneto’s c.L so they could blow him up for trying it.
worried about Vipers at start of round? pick Hulk since he’ll beat EX Seismo and tridash while OSing to throw at the same time. worried about Hulk, pick X-23 since her normals hit twice quickly enough to beat the armor. worried about Zero, pick Akuma because he has one of the best invincible moves in the game and can make it safe for a bar. plus he’s got great walkspeed so you could possibly just walk backwards right from the get go so you aren’t in range for anything. don’t want to worry about it at all, pick MODOK and just fly away since nobody can do shit about it except try to SJ up and get an air throw on a character that dominates the space below him
I just don’t get it. you have completely lost all perspective on how the game actually plays.
the more you scale your combo before the infinite the more reps of the infinite you have to do. more potential to drop the combo, and more bar for your opponent. if you actually started a combo with eight Ls and then went into the infinite after to kill the other character, both you and your opponent would five bars after you finished your 15+ reps of the infinite
nobody is even thinking of the resets you could pull off using one of these infinites
An attacking character period is a threat period, doesn’t always matter if they have meter or not. If I don’t give you room to breath and your character has non invincible start up on supers it doesn’t really matter what meter I have at the time. As for hit confirming and using an assist or throws etc there again is still no difference. I said that infinites are a tool, so use them as such. If you are using a character that has a horrible post throw game then use your tools and yet again risk them escaping, which still boils down to what your second character can infinite from and what TAC options your point character can provide. You are thinking to much in the shades of black and white. In a game of “don’t get hit” you should already know that any hit can kill regardless of meter.
i haven’t read the whole thread, but i haven’t seen anyone mention one of the classic issues with true infinites: timer scam. as many TODs as there are in this game, most of them are pretty expedient, with damage being as high as it is. on top of all the other advantages this gives the attacking player, it also more dramatically decreases the opponent’s ability to come back in time to actually make a difference.
for my part i’m really just in the camp that is bothered by this thing less because of the fact of it being an infinite and more because the TAC system is absolutely the dumbest thing in the game by a mile. if you want to set up a 50/50 on me using actual character mechanics, fine, but LMHS into a literal dice roll mechanic is just the furthest thing away from what’s interesting about fighting games to me. it’s a three-way straight up literal guess, and now it leads into a full character kill. great. not only that, it makes TAC better even if you don’t ever get hit by the infinite, because even if a character only has a single direction infinite, you sure as hell are going to want to tech that one, meaning you’re free to every other direction and get opened up for some other big dumb combo anyway.
dumb, dumb, dumb.
So… What exactly? That’s good? That the whole start of round is contingent on a character pick? That would be fine if the consequences for being in the losing end were not so severe.
Also, alot of the characters you listed can’t go into the infinite of all their throws. There are other issues with you example, but that’s not really what we are talking about.
The way I see it, the BEST result of these infinites is that they make meter management and resets irrelevant. And make a QTE a core mechanic. I don’t consider that a positive for the game on the whole, even if the rest of what I said is wrong.
I won’t close with an insult. So you don’t have to worry about coming up with another one.
I’m glad someone else gets my core point.
can mags still dash under tridash back overhead fier…or H in this case? if so, there’s your reset back into the infinite
or dash under cross up jumping H or cr.L
or drop combo into jumping H or tridash L
someone call djb13 lol does he even play this game?
and for the record, I like TACs its one of the better ideas that mvc3 has
TACs need longer counter windows. You should be able to react to them every time if you’re actually paying attention, and right now, while you can react to the TAC, it’s virtually impossible to react to the direction. The only reason it’s possible at all, is each character has 3 different TAC attacks, and while the color is still too late to react to, a lot of characters telegraph their direction just from the moves animation before the flash.
Mag’s crL was 1 frame in MvC2, what normal were you buffering to beat it?
yeah, but having five bars doesn’t mean the same thing for every character. team composition built around this could end up making it so characters like vergil, phoenix, strider and morrigan win the match off the first hit they (or their partner) land. we already have that with zero, and most people aren’t too thrilled about that. nobody liked it when wolv/akuma did it in vanilla either, but at least those were 15 second rounds. this is going to be the same thing only exponentially more tedious to watch, be subjected to, and even perform yourself.
and again, re: time, honestly, scaling your combo as much as possible before going into the infinite could work in the attacker’s favor. it’s pretty dirty!
you can do whatever you want. since you push HSD to its absolute limit you could do all kinds of dirty shit. like MvC2 Magneto levels of dirtiness, except with most the roster. don’t need to go back into the infinite either, just a no meter normal combo would be more than enough to take out anybody. back into the infinite would be more hype
not an insult, its an observation. I’m used to the tier threads being big time into theory but you have reached way further than ever before with this infinite stuff. infinites are never going to be as big of a deal as you seem to think. stop freaking out about it and save yourself the stress
are you talking about the start of the match?
this is mainly where i’m expecting to disagree with you, once we see how this technique develops. my concern isn’t that it’s going to be “too good”, but rather that it’s going to get boring as hell real quick.
edit: i mean, hell, part of the appeal of this game is that it’s so fast paced. this isn’t going to do the game any favors in that regard.