What do you make of…
Spoiler
the last scene mimicking one of Cobb’s memories? Children wearing the same clothes, in the same place as the memory shown earlier in the movie - coincidence, or deliberate hint that he’s still dreaming?
i loved the movie but there was one thing that didnt make sense to me or i must have missed something while i was watching or i completely forgot a scene after the movie finished but it bothered me as soon as i thought about it.
Spoiler dont read
[spoiler=] in the ending when they were going in layers and layers of dreams, things transferred over. saito wound transferred as they went deeper and deeper, the music that the driver played in arts ear transferred to the snow fort and thus how everyone knew how much time they had. but the zero gravity didn’t. and thats what didnt make sense to me. how can everything else but zero gravity get transferred over? if im not mistaking, art didnt play music into anybodys ear when he heard the music right? in arts dream when they were floating around, shouldn’t that transfer over to the snow fort? [/spoiler]
ok so i dont know the spoiler command on srk, can anybody show me the command? i will place it as soon as i know how. thanks
thanks specs for the help
Add a =text after the word spoiler. Like <spoiler=Dr. B has amazing Mad Sexy? man shoulders> with square brackets instead of greater/less than signs.
I’ll give it a shot…
for fanatiq
Spoiler
To paraphrase Dileep Rao’s interview (page 6), I can’t rebut things about a character / occurrence off screen. I mean, I could but it would just be my own conjecture and wouldn’t get us anywhere.
If you feel the quick jumps are indicative of a dream, that’s fine, but I’m going to say it’s just an editing technique. From what I’ve seen, Nolan’s movie do not have a lot of shoe leather. In this case, the disorientating cuts just happen to play into the movie’s themes.
Again, really speculative. If his daughter is there to wake him up, why doesn’t she just constantly tell him to wake up, or just shoot him? And if she’s aged, why hasn’t he aged even more given the time disparity? I really would not second guess this plot device.
And for others, I know people have pointed out Caine’s telling DiCaprio to come back to reality, but that was just a red herring by Nolan IMO. If we are to assume Caine is an actual person and visiting DiCaprio’s dream to tell him to wake up, why don’t more people in his life make this attempt? Or if he’s a subconscious projection, why is his message not even more adamant when Mal’s? Why don’t other projections do the same - are you telling me his subconscious is fickle?
Remember, Mal is DiCaprio’s projection and she acts as his subconscious thinks she would act. She says the things that he thinks Mal would say (e.g. paranoid ideas he is guilty he planted in her). DiCaprio explains this to Page in their first shared dream.
People are saying that the credits show different ages for the kids, so that’s what I’m going with. I personally think it’s an annoying and foolish decision by Nolan. If people believe it’s still a dream because of this, I don’t blame them. My only crappy response is that their clothes is just coincidence.
Again, there’s no point in discussing the grandmother’s motives. Maybe she’s a 2nd wife, maybe she hated Mal, maybe she believes kids should have a father in their lives, etc.
I’ve seen the movie twice, but the Caine scene is still hard to recall. From what I remember, it felt like he was only trying to help DiCaprio get over his guilt with Mal. If he told DiCaprio to come back to the states, I’m going to assume it’s because he knows DiCaprio is innocent and is willing to risk a trial. I know, that’s hypocritically speculative on my part. I’ll have to watch again to see if Nolan could have made this scene better, or if I just wasn’t paying attention.
Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here or how it supports your idea. A little help?
I do believe it was intentionally put there as evidence suggesting the possibility that he is still dreaming. Since nolan decided to plant this idea in our heads via the totem at the end, he had to include some evidence to bolster such a possibility that cobb was in the dream world
I thought the movie was pretty good. My family thought it was too complicated and thought it was only ok.
Although I love complicated stuff.
Something I realized about the ending and the parallel to the audience. Perhaps more subtle than the Inglorious Bastards movie theater thing.
ending
[details=Spoiler]Nolan kind of pulls the same inception on the audience that Leo does on his wife, with the same imagery. This applies mainly to those who believe that the ending doesn’t show reality.
I was thinking about it… Think about what DiCaprio does, spins that top in that safe in his wife’s mind. She, from that point, cannot believe anymore that the real world is real, despite what she sees.
If you think about the visual elements of the ending, it is much the same- we see that spinning top on his table, and we decide that he’s still unconscious. Despite what we’ve just seen- him waking up, and being reunited with his family- we’ve had this idea planted in us, that doubt of what we’re seeing, because of the same visual image.[/details]
Maybe I’m reading too much into it (there’s certainly no shortage of that with this film), but I thought it was interesting. I should really see the movie a second time at some point, because I was just listening to the /Film podcast, and their take on it was completely different from mine, regarding what happened to DiCaprio’s character and where he is during the ending.
Though I think it’s necessary to point out that the ending needed to be ambiguous. It generates much more interest and discussion than if, for example
ending
Spoiler
the ending was crystal-clear and the top had fallen over clearly. I mean, you could still make the case, but it would be more obvious that he was back in reality. Not giving an entirely straight answer makes you think about the film more, and want to rewatch it more, I think.
edit: I’ll also say that the idea that nothing in the movie takes place in reality is a somewhat lazy interpretation, IMO. Because some things do, and some things don’t, it seems an oversimplification to simply state that nothing does.
Though Dileep Rao from the movie says it better than I would bother to:
interview
[details=Spoiler]
-What if Leo is the one being “incepted” with an idea? We keep hearing the phrase “Do you want to become an old man, filled with regret?” and it’s like someone ? maybe Ellen Page’s character because she’s the catalyst of his emotional catharsis ? has set this all up so he can let go of his regret over Mal’s death. That’s why at the end with Saito he offers to come back and be young again (not old, full of regret). Even the Edith Piaf song they use to signal ten seconds before kick translates to “No, I regret nothing.” And there’s so many scenes where Ellen Page is talking to Leo, getting him to reveal his issues, in the same way that Eames tricks Fischer into revealing his issues. Also, Leo’s kids are the same age at the end, right?
I’m not trying to be authoritative, so this is just my understanding of how I approached it from my work on it. But you’re saying it’s like some sort of crazy-ass psychotherapy session where the whole thing is a constructed narrative of massive complexity only to distract Cobb so that he will achieve his change? I mean sure, you could totally say that that’s what it is. In a way, that’s what we’re doing to Fischer, so it’s not unfounded.
The problem for me is that you’re using negative evidence to support a story that isn’t there. I don’t know what to say about a character who only exists before and after the movie. You’re talking about a character who isn’t onscreen. And I mean on one hand, it’s awesome that this movie can sustain that kind of discussion. It shows you just how well-thought-through and comprehensive it is, but I mean I don’t know where that kind of speculation ends. It’s like people who are convinced 9/11 is an inside job. It’s a mental heuristic failure to think that one or two minor details explain absolutely everything. I mean, kids wear the same clothes all the time.
To me, it’s a far more elegant story if it’s a vast job that Leo has to pull off. The threat is real, the growth is real, the adversary is real. The weakness of “It’s all a dream” ? why we hate that, why we feel cheated when narratively anything is revealed to be all a dream ? is that you’ve just asked me to spend so much time and emotional capital investing in the stakes of this, and you’ve now swept it away with the most anti-narrative structuralism that doesn’t have anything to substitute in its place. It’s laughing at you for even taking it seriously. You don’t want to feel like a victim of the narrative, and I don’t think Christopher Nolan would do that.
-For me, though, this film could say “It’s all a dream” and I would feel even more satisfied. Because the premise is “through a very complex dream, we can enact real change in a character.” All of the sudden it’s not a fake-out bullshit journey, if that’s the case. In other words, if I’m satisfied by the success of Fischer’s transformation, then Leo’s growth is just as satisfying.
But he doesn’t have to be dreaming for that growth. If, by way of example, in the last scene where Cobb ran off to hug his kids, there were a reflection of Mal in the window? That would make it far more vague and I’d say, sure. But that’s not there.
Close your eyes and listen to the sound at the end. I really do think the top wobbles and that it’s real. Cobb does go on a journey, because that’s what movies are, and I think that’s what leads audiences to this kind of speculation. Because of the story he chose to tell, Nolan is also commenting on the nature of stories themselves, all stories, which is why Leo’s change can’t be evidence that it’s all a dream. …[/details]
On top of that, the inception-inception idea seems completely unmotivated. They’re doing to him…as a favor? I understand seeing the parallel between Cillian Murphy’s character and DiCaprio’s character, but it doesn’t have to be so literal.
^^^
Cobb’s Totem
Spoiler
Even if the top falls over, it still wouldn’t be conclusive evidence. I feel the eternally spinning top has more to do with Cobb’s issues with his involvement with his wife’s suicide. Once he let go of his guilt, the ties he made with the top may have been severed and no longer a reliable totem.
Thanks Pimp Willy.
Your spoiler tag is goofed.
I hear what you’re saying, and I think that is ultimately the point of the movie, or at least of that character’s story arc. But it if it had happened in the last second of the film before things went to black, it would would be the simplest and cleanest way to get the idea across.
Speaking of totems, I heard someone mention something about them I hadn’t thought before. That the reason you don’t let other people touch your totems is rational, and not so arbitrary as some of us have been reading into it- Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s character tells Ellen Page’s character that you never let anyone else touch your totem, but he says this in the real world. So perhaps the reason you don’t let others touch your totem is so that they don’t actually alter it. If you have no totem, you might be unsure of whether or not you’re awake, and that, for obvious reasons, has the potential to really screw with people.
I haven’t made any comment about this film since its release 11 days ago. But, after I seen it for two consecutive Saturdays in a row (July 17th & 24th), I’ll say this is Nolan’s most epic, beautifully-crafted movie to date. Where would I rank this with Nolan’s past work? I would say it’s slightly better than “The Dark Knight”, but not equally as impressive as “Memento”.
The truth about this film is that it play on the audience’s expectations for a gift-wrapped ending, which is what makes it entertaining. There really is no answer; especially with that final shot that could go either way.
Can’t wait for the screenplay/script to pop-up online somewhere.
Couldn’t agree with you more. :bgrin:
Okay the amount of genius the film has, Inception theme - The Inception music is really just other music slowed down
If you ever need to figure out how to do a spoiler, just quote somebody else who has it working so you can see how it works. I’ve fixed yours in my post
Spoiler Title Here
Spoiler
Even if the top falls over, it still wouldn’t be conclusive evidence. I feel the eternally spinning top has more to do with Cobb’s issues with his involvement with his wife’s suicide. Once he let go of his guilt, the ties he made with the top may have been severed and no longer a reliable totem.
ending
Spoiler
Wasn’t there a link in this thread that pointed out that his kids at the end weren’t wearing the EXACT same thing as his kids in his dreams? Also credits list the dream kids as 3 yr old Phillipa/20 mo old James and 5 yr old Phillipa/3 yr old James.
SPOILER for ending and Totem mechanics
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…
Last Warning
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Please somebody shed some light on this regard because I think I kinda understand the Totem mechanic but I have my doubts, if I got it right then it doesn’t matter if Cobb’s top fell on the last scene in the sense that it doesn’t mean he is definetly in reality. The totem as I understand functions to tell you if you are in **someone else **dream, because the host of the dream can not replicate the behaviour of your totem (hence the top spinning forever) thats why other persons should not see your totem or it would invalidate the usefulness of it. What I try to say is that if Cobb is dreaming and spins his top it would fall down anyway since he perfeclty knows his totem and the properties of the item, am I right or am I reading to much into it?
How to do spoiler tags:
[ spoiler=name of spoiler]insert your text here[/details]
I think most of you who are having problems with it are just forgetting the name of your spoiler.
the top
Spoiler
Just as a part of the movie, the top falling over will have some significance- its entire purpose as an object is to let you know when you’re in reality, and to worry when you’re not (aside from visual imagery). So just from the perspective of the person who would write the story, the top falling over has to mean something, to give it emotional weight when it doesn’t.
You could say for Blade Runner that some guy just happened to be making origami unicorns by coincidence, but I would argue there is something being implied by it.
To actually address your question,
Spoiler
the totem is valuable because it cannot be fabricated, and it may have special properties (spinning forever, etc). I’m not sure if it has a conscious or subconscious trigger- for example if you’re under but don’t realize it, will it still behave strangely or wrongly. But just by virtue of the fact that DiCaprio’s character dopes himself up and goes under all the time but still trusts the totem, that would imply that it is, for story purposes, a fairly reliable beacon.
I saw the movie yesterday and liked it, and after reading to about page 6, reading the Rao interview, and seeing TS’s posts on this page, my opinion is
opinion
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that the “the entire movie is in a dream” theory is inelegant because the question of why the top falls in one dream reality and tips over in another dream reality can’t be explained. And with it is ripped away whatever symbolic value the top might have had as a signifier of the story’s “meaning.”
But yes, “it was all a dream” is an alternative theory that can’t be refuted unless Nolan makes another movie.
I entertained several theories about what was going on in the movie on the long drive back to my apartment but
opinion
Spoiler
I have to say I did not notice the business with Cobb only wearing the ring in his dream state, and the idea that Nolan has created an inception in the mind of the viewer through the top spinning in the ending. Very nice observations, both of them.
The personal view I settled on during the drive back and that has only been reinforced with what I’ve read online is that Cobb is in reality whenever the top stops spinning, but that he stayed in Limbo at the movie’s end. There’s a point to be made that perhaps Cobb is in reality for the first act of the movie but stays in a dream reality that is due to Yusuf’s first application of the sedative. I don’t take this idea very seriously though, since although it allows us to still preserve the “rules” we were told about the spinning top, it turns the meaning of the rest of the movie on its head, and hence, I put it right next to the “it was all a dream” as cannon fodder. (Again, IMO.)
I spent most of my drive back thinking that perhaps the Michael Caine or Ellen Page characters may have either consciously or unconsciously performed inception of Cobb, but after reading the Rao interview, I discarded this idea, since I think his point about Cobb’s resolution of his own personal issues by his confrontation with Mal is more important than whether the Ken Watanabe, Michael Caine, or Ellen Page characters implanted the idea in his head. There’s enough wiggle room to make a case for Cobb’s own hypothetical inception being analogous to Fischer’s inception at level three after having been given prods in the right direction at previous levels, but I find it hard to take seriously alternative explanations that would entail a real conspiracy between any of the supporting characters to have this happen. At best, there is a case to be made that Cobb’s own resolution of his issues is internally consistent with what we see Fischer go through–IMO, that’s about as good a case that can be made in that direction.
I would like to point out that it’s possible to do a Bayesian analysis for the ending where
statistics
Spoiler
if we take most of the movie EXCEPT FOR THE ENDING at face value (i.e., Cobb is in reality for most of the movie when he “knows” he is, except for the ending when we may or may not be,) then the top not having fallen over at the end of the movie means that there’s a 75% probability that he is still in the dream world at the end of the movie and a 25% chance that he is in reality.
That said, if we accept that the decision to use older cast members for the children at the end of the movie means that the characters themselves are actually older, we are in the opposite situation where there is a 75% probably he is in reality and 25% chance he is still in the dream world.
So if you consider the fact that the top hasn’t toppled over and the fact that the children are older together, you get 50-50 odds. BUT once you start considering other details of the ending, like, what are the odds that his children might have been wearing the exact same clothing as the day he left if he really WAS back in reality… well, there’s no way to do a conditional probability analysis for something like that unless we start estimating what the average number of clothing that an average child owns in the United States and the odds of that average child wearing exactly the same thing on two randomly sampled days, multiplied by two because there are two children…
yeah, let’s not go there.
And finally, correct me if I’m wrong, but
What’s Limbo?
Spoiler
So everyone shares THE SAME limbo? When everybody dies in a dream state, as long as you are hooked up to the same dream machine, you end up in the same Limbo? Or is it that everyone who dies in a dream state, regardless of whether it’s the same machine, ends up in the same Limbo?
your last post;
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not sure of the exact rules, but in this case ( the case of the movie ) they would have shared leo decap’s limbo, because it defaults to whoevers been in limbo before.
edit: 'aight, that didn’t work at all with the tags but fuck it. if you’ve read this far then you’ve seen it before, lol. it’s not really a spoiler anyway.
^^^
Thanks for replying. To fix the problem you’re having with the tags,
limbo
Spoiler
OK, I can see how that would work. Everybody see’s Cobb’s version of Limbo since he’s the one that has a version of it that’s been worked over already.
Levitt stood out as wooden to me
especially next to leo
i dont get the hype
but maybe he was written that way
i dont know
on acting - since it basically was an action movie, everyone did pretty well in their roles. Leo did great - if he wasn’t in this movie, it would have been knocked down a tier for sure. I also am a fan of Marion Cotillard and I thought she did a good job here too considering her role. Page was good. Levitt was kind of bland, but since it’s an action movie for the most part, his role really could have been played by anyone - maybe Shia LaBeouf would have been better here.