of course, but I mean thats the ONLY thing you can do, there is nothing else to do to get better
and becouse there are sooo many moves that to the eye “should” be unsafe but are safe you have to study the framedata religiously to get good
That is true in pretty much every fighting game. There would be no frame traps without those “deceptive” moves.
I think you just have a problem with numbers (and also with English spelling)
yhea im not so good at english that is true, you dont understand what i mean its OK
Naturally everyone is going to say SFV is better…But they won’t tell you the only reason why they claim it’s better cause the game is noob-school. It caters to easy mode, they feel better cause they can do all the simple combos, st. jab jump ins easily, don’t have to worry about COMPLICATED mix-ups/frame traps which are almost non-existent in SFV.
USF4 is better, it has more variety, it’s more challenging and looks better.
[s]This is a sad topic for me. When SFV was coming out, I would aptly say, thinking it truly to be impossible for it to be otherwise, that “there is no way it can be worse than SFIV for me.” Somehow Capcom managed to do what I thought impossible, and made a game which sighs god, I have to say is just worse than SFIV. I had more fun playing SFIV (you have no idea how disgusting this is to say) than I did playing SFV. I feel like if SFV didn’t have so many fundamental issues I’d enjoy it’s base gameplay more, but those issues prevent the game from even being taken seriously in my eyes.
So, so many fundamental issues with this game, and the result is that there is literally nothing I can get from SFV that I can’t get in other fighting games in better spades. [/s]
You know what, fuck it. I don’t like SFV in near it’s entirety right now. It was such a disappointing game for me. In it’s conception, it could have been so good. While I will forever feel like this game is missing a mechanic, it also hurts even more that the existing mechanics have NO personality. They are painfully bland, and annoyingly implemented. Why lock what is really supposed to be your tag-line mechanic behind a meter system which only builds from being BAD? Now if only V-skills were actually core to the game and built gauge steadily, combined with other building options like CCs, and it could have been just fine as a comeback mechanic, while still giving the successful player the option to even use it.
There’s so much I want to say, but, fuck it. I’ll just make a video at some point to get my last bit of feelings out about SFV and move on until it either gets good, or gets out.
So to answer the question, yes, yes I would much rather play SFIV. Shivers
I will respond to this though:
This is inaccurate. While yes, knowing frame data is nice, it has never been more necessary than in SFV. I have never in all my time playing fighting games seen more people know frame data about a game, and seen numbers thrown around more often than with V. You HAVE to know the frame data, because Capcom was dumb and included an input buffer on normals, a execution aid that in my opinion, has no place in a street fighter game, at least not one with this mechanical layout. If it was a 1 frame buffer, maybe, but 3 is just ridiculous, to the point that execution ceases to exist, especially in reversal situations.
I’ve been saying it since the betas, this is a scientist’s game. The execution is near non-existent, there is a huge input buffer, and the active frames on moves is VERY small, meaning things have to be precise. Everything in this game is just a series of numbers that will ALWAYS be the same, because deviating and trying to manually time a perfect meaty with a 2 frame active move with 6.5+ input delay on an opponent with an inaccurate wake-up animation is a ridiculous and undesired stress. When you block a move, you will always get your punish, you not doing so is either because you’re bad, or because input delay is a tough shit to deal with, enjoy that counter-hit.
Input buffers this lenient belong in games with variable block stun, defensive options and/or more oppressive offense. It has NO place in a street fighter game, at least not on reversals and shit. Put it in combos, I don’t care. There’s a reason Guilty Gear for nearly as long as it’s had an input buffer has had Just Guards, to reward your successful defense with an easier time poking out of the hole that you just made in the opponent’s offense. Dynamic systems working in unison, what a novel concept, lost on Street Fighter V, both in it’s fundamental issues and it’s core mechanics.
Anyway, the fact of the matter is, you don’t have to know frame data in a lot of fighting games, but you absolutely have to for SFV. If you think every top player in older games is a scientist and a frame data wizard with it all memorized, than you sorely mistaken. Ironic that this casual game for casual players requires outside game knowledge more than any other SF. Awesome job Capcom, you did it.
While I agree SFIV has more varierty, I disagree that it’s better.
You can say people jump a lot in SFV and play no neutral, well ok. But SFIV gave people a shitload of tools to get around the neutral.
Someone is pokehappy? FADC trough it.
They throw fireballs. FADC trough it.
They knock you down? Wakeup DP with FADC to be 100% safe.
In the least you have to teach your opponent in both games to play like you want. In IV you either start throwing hailmarry armor breaker out or hope that you can cancel a normal into a special, before they can release the focus to crumble you for a free combo. In some cases you got punished for playing footsies.
In V is the only shit I have to deal with to make people stay on the ground and play the neutral, their jumping and anti-airing in this game is so easy, since the hitboxe of the jumpin is mostly behind a huge hurtbox, while in SFIV you had often the opposit situation and were forced to DP someone to get the anti-air.
At least V allows you again to AA with normals reliable.
Thats just Capcom.
Take some characters for example.
Juri was designed to be a beginner friendly character, she turned out to be one of the more complex and technical characters.
Decapre was designed to be beginner friendly, turned out she required a good chunk of execution, positioning and good spacing.
Characters that were supposed to be easy for newbies turned out to be some of the more challeging of the game.
Why shouldn’t this happen with their games too?
SFIV was designed to catter the lowest group of people possible and highlevel required you to learn 1000 OS to have a chance.
There is nothing wrong with input buffers in this game making it to easy. The problems are more nuanced and varied than that.
Capcom’s inability knows no bounds. SFIV was supposed to be the easy game as you said, but the absurd levels of input leniency created so many avenues for OS’s that the game took on a completely unintentional form. A concept I enjoy in fighting games, where games end up playing a lot different than was intended. Though I hated the OS go-nuts nature of SFIV, and I dislike SFIV in so many ways, it still, at the least, offers more variable gameplay than SFV.
Their inability in SFIV created avenues to potentially higher levels of play. Their inability in SFV, reduced the skill ceiling of the game. They specifically removed as much as possible from the game, this time with the insight of it’s abuse able nature. So very few OSs outside of the commonly used ones throughout all of fighting games, no karas, limited juggle system, restrictive everything. On top of that, the neutral is unresponsive, hitboxes are a shitshow and so samey and unsafe that neutral is a boring timing game (in a game with input delay, nice), and the game’s input buffer creates a game built upon numbers. The same situation happens all the time in SFV, and it plays out the exact same way… over and over. Everything in this game is formulaic, it all plays out in sequence with no errors, no timing, no options, no nothing. You block, you punish, you block, you change turns, you block, you block again, then you do the previous entries.
There are no variables, you don’t have to account for player ability at high level plays: “Oh, he has godlike execution for punishes (which was a THING before)” You just do it, over, and over. There are no systems to create variability, there is nothing. Character individuality generally offers very little deviation from this rule. All of this bothers me, and only more, because it’s a laggy game, that plays less responsive offline than a 200+ms ping does on fightcade. Sad.
VF is mostly all frame data and then 3 choice after. I have spent the last 5 years learning frame data in it and know maybe 35% or less of the games frame data. 3D games require extensive study of frame data, 2D games were less demanding on that study, but had somewhat steep execution demands. SF5 frame data is a joke and very minimal compared to VF or even Tekken, it has a relatively low amount of frame data to study compared to more technical games. The game is just bad, it isn’t because of the new and still minimal frame data requirements. Adding in the frame data to dojo like VF and KI do would help, but then again so would fast loading times, a new netcode, better game play mechanics, actual single player content, less input lag, fewer bugs, reduced clipping, larger hitboxes, better match making, more rewarding combos, and a less homogenized roster.
So you say that the game is both too lenient and requires too much precision? Eh…
Frame data is just a tool that helps you discover what you can do in each situation, which links you can get and how hard you can punish. The truth is that in SF4 frame data might’ve mattered less because every character had bullshit to escape all situations. JWong reminded yesterday that the presence of invincible backdashes and of OS made way more stuff reset to neutral compared to SF5 where the lack of get-out-of-jail-free cards and quickrise forces to continue aggression if you don’t want to lose momentum.
Also linking lights into mediums without CH was actually a thing, which means that no matter how small the screw up from your opponent was you would always get a solid punish on everything. Since in SF5 linking and cancelling goes strictly from the strongest to the weakest attack except for a very small number of characters, knowing if you can do a light or a heavy combo is important to optimize the damage output.
I really don’t have any issue with a tighter game that requires a higher precision if you want to get the best out if it. In Xrd too I get punished if I do my meaty a tad too late.
Yes, it is. That’s not an oxymoron nor is it hard to follow. The game offers you an extreme level of leniency. The game thus is built around numbers, because you can’t make a unsafe move that won’t be punished due to difficulty of the execution or anticipation required to actually punish it, the buffer and the ridiculously high level of block pause prevent this. Any move that is negative WILL be punished, 90% of the time in the exact same way. Thus every move must follow the same formula, and the result is a very homogeneous fighting game. You know abusing things with buffers or that allowed drumming like reversal supers in 3S was the easiest way to punish moves, even if technically, a more skilled player could have done a frame perfect cr.HP into Joudan or something. Execution gods get nothing in this game, and I feel sorry for them.
Numbers. You don’t do meaties in SFV by feels or visuals, you do it with exact setups, which due to the input buffer will be exactly the same every time because you don’t have to know how to tap a button in sequence worth a damn in SFV. The lack of active frames destroys the concept of having a consistent presence in neutral, makes whiff punishing worse, buffering worse, and everything, but it also makes doing manual anything in this game a near impossibility when coupled with input delay. Yes, you have to be damn precise to do a meaty in SFV, and because of the limited active frames, most of the time it’s not even a meaty, it’s hitting on frame 1 or not even – a lot of the time it’s just a frame trap on their wake up.
When I was playing 3S a ton, there was a time I had most of the cast’s frame data memorized, but that was my thing, I WAS a lab guy, I was the guy who would go frame by frame in videos to see how things played out. So many players both better and worse than me did not know the frame data as well, but that didn’t stop them. I don’t know how long Ryu gets knockdowned for compared to Dudley, I just know exactly how to time a meaty UoH by slight delays that are in my head, not in a sequence of perfectly timed normals. Yes, using normals for timing always existed, but because it still required precision to do due to there being no input buffer, it was still an executional player’s trick. Using it loosely like after Q’s SAII for the dash timing, that works regardless because it’s a loose timing, but for exact pin-point meaty setups? No, people do it by feels and visuals.
Precision sounds fine… in a game that’s FUCKIN RESPONSIVE! 6.5mydick dude.
I meant to specify 2D fighters, because yes, I know jack about 3D fighters.
Uuuhh I feel you’re just putting together a lot of contradictory things that you don’t like in the game, but whatever floats your boat.
I think you could just sum up your complaints to “there’s too much input lag”.
input buffer and input lag are distinct problems.
I don’t mind the input buffer personally but I see Skiegh’s point. I think if moves that were negative on block offered more pushback, that might fix the “turn-based” feel of the game without amplifying the execution requirement. I am not personally a fan of games that cater to “execution gods” because I find execution to be quite boring (compared to the other skills required to be good at FGs). I don’t see how forcing players to time frame perfect punishes is really any better than forcing people to manually time meaties with shitty active frames. that bit does seem contradictory to me.
more active frames would be great though.
I agree about the active frames. Just by comparing Ryu’s USF4 and SF5 versions, you’ll see that while the startup of his standing normals is pretty much the same, the number of active frames ranged from 3 to 8 before (with a few exceptions) while in the new game they range from 2 to 4. Maybe they thought that in a game with trade priority system having normals that linger out for too long would give a too big advantage to mediums and heavies and to compensate for the loss of active frames they made the moves harder to punish on whiff. Or maybe they really didn’t want to overpower meaties by having moves that you can throw out very freely and still be safe if you don’t whiff.
About the execution, I think it’s good when you can land longer combos that require a bigger series of inputs, but stuff like 1-2f of manual delay just to land a BnB is unnecessary. You should be able to do basic stuff relatively easily and harder stuff with more dedication, not the other way around.
All I know is that SFIV did not get me to stop playing MMORPGs, SFV made me take time away from MMORPGs, buy a fightstick (after 12 years) and get to 3a.m. without even noticing
USFIV is better deal in every way.
Had much more fun with SFIV but think SFV is the better game…